Left wing dialogue

[TrueBlueYorkshire]

As someone who has worked all over the world and is interested in politics I just wanted to see if I am only one who finds the language of the left tiring.

To give you an allusion of the type of language i mean below are two prime examples:

1. Taking the most extreme view and expressing it as if it is common.
   
2. Denying that people should show personal responsibility (this quite often goes hand in hand with point number 1).
   

I just find the language instantly de-rails any sort of constructive conversation regarding policy into a haves vs have-nots type argument which puts most people on the defensive. While people on the right are having sensible arguments with each other regarding society; in general people I talk to on the left seem to be in their own little world.

AIBU to think this sort of language is all to common from the left and it is what is isolating them?

[TheChandler]

Dora I think you're talking about courtroom evidence, which is not the subject to which I'm referring. Although, observations are also used as courtroom evidence.

I see.

Since everyone on here is a student, because they are of course "studying" this thread, could you possibly explain the rules of evidence that pertain to their findings? I've studied the mumsnet t&cs and cannot find them. Or alternatively, it might help those who lack this knowledge if you simply copied and pasted the rules of evidence that apply to posting on mumsnet in all their detail? As opposed to just describing them (wheres your source anyway).

The above post is absolutely serious! I really am mystified!

[bigmouthstrikesagain]

Making a poorly supported case for your views and being left wing are not synonymous. Debate is a skill. It can be learned, being left wing does not automatically make you screechy, emotive and hysterical. It is also common to find fault in the arguments made by someone who has opposing views to your own.

I get tired of the same erroneous views about the causes of the economic downturn and the constant use of "hard working tax payers/ families" in conservative rhetoric. I put that irritation down to the fact that the Tories are wrong, they are in power and I am pissed off about it. I can politely debate till the cows go home but politics is about life, power, who has the power and how wealth is distributed so getting passionate about it is a good thing that we should not shy away from. The political majority in this country is apparently the right wing at the moment so however impassioned the arguments, the left have not been "fooling" innocent voters with their emotive ranty-ness!

Also if you look at lefty folk in general they are just as likely to argue with each other as with people on the right, healthy debate is good - but the left does have a tendency to be factional, which is a big weakness and bites us on the bum constantly. United we stand.

[LadyGlen]

TheChandler

What in the name of all that's wonderful are you blethering on about?

[ElectraCute]

Oh, did the OP post a goady message and then never return?


What. A. Surprise

[DoraGora]

I don't think that's what happened. I think someone posted to say that the language of the left was tiring, repetitive and incorrect. And then, he or she proceeded to display a complete ignorance of said language. I think that's the goady bit.

[MaggieJoyBlunt]

People post to say that members of society need to be responsible for their own choices, and in return that's called goady...

You're not pretending to believe that that is what you were doing yesterday are you NC?

[MaggieJoyBlunt]

Because the thread you were goading on is still there for everyone to read.

[WoodliceCollection]

"1. Taking the most extreme view and expressing it as if it is common."

What, you mean like taking the one person in a city who has 5 kids and lives on benefits, and expressing it as though that's a common scenario? Terrible left wing failing, that, eh?

"2. Denying that people should show personal responsibility (this quite often goes hand in hand with point number 1)."

That's more of a convincing idea- if not particularly original, since most people would distinguish 'right' and 'left' moralities by the emphasis on the personal vs the collective. I think plenty of people on 'the left' believe in personal responsibility, though- for example, you'd struggle to find someone left-wing who thinks there is no personal responsibility to pay taxes, to recycle waste, to minimise environmental damage, etc. The difference is only that right wing concepts of 'personal responsibility' veer more towards intrusive, dictatorial matters such as wishing to control people's reproductive choices or family structures (usually favouring heterosexual marriage).

You clearly aren't here to listen to reason, though, so plod along with your undergrad-style political posturing.

[brittabot]

I assumed the OP was a student trying to amass data (given the out of context usage of 'allusion').

[DoraGora]

That's not the language of the left; Marx is.

And, although he was, in part, the author of the Communist Manifesto, to him, Capitalism was the forerunner of Communism, not an alternative to it. There is therefore quite a lot that he and David Cameron would agree on, running a fiscal surplus, for example. That was one of Karl's main aims. But, he would have had huge problems with Mr. Cameron's penchant for giving the product away to Conservative voters in the form of tax cuts. He would have pointed out that this is not its purpose. Another thing that Marx would have had huge issues with is the McJob Lobby ensuring that the young do not receive Osbourne's living wage. The owners of the means of production oppressing the workers was the type of thing that he held a dim view of. But, on the whole, given that Capitalism would inevitably serve his purpose, Marx was critical of its methods. But, he saw its uses. If you want to see the language of someone who makes Marx look like Father Christmas, by comparison, then you should take a look at Nikolai Bukharin.

[Tanith]

I would make further observations that extreme, unchecked, right wing thinking has resulted in some of the most repressive, murderous regimes in recent history (USSR under the KGB, East Germany under the Stasi, most of Eastern Europe).

And then theChandler hastily corrected it to "left wing thinking"

Actually, she was right the first time, too. She just forgot to mention the Nazis, Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Pinochet...

From which we may conclude that extremist megalomaniacs occur on both extremes of the political spectrum. You could even say that the extreme left and extreme right are not so very far from their thinking and actually meet!

[Offred]

While people on the right are having sensible arguments with each other regarding society; in general people I talk to on the left seem to be in their own little world.

Pffft...

[Offred]

proportionately, our welfare bill is far higher than it should be

Can we add ignorant and superior to the judgements already heaped upon you.
A. Having a baby is not a fucking 'lifestyle choice'
B. There is plenty of money in one of the richest countries in the world it is just unequally distributed
C. The welfare bill is 'proportionally' high because of pensioners not people of working age.

[Offred]

And woodlice is absolutely right. When you say 'personal responsibility' you mean individualism i.e. Every individual is responsible for themselves and themselves only and therefore if they fail they have only themselves to blame. A left wing view of personal responsibility involves a whole lot more - that every individual has shared responsibility for the health and wellbeing of the whole of society.

[DoraGora]

I suppose, but weren't Pol Pot, Mao and Stalin a bit short on the dialogue bit? Isn't that somewhat similar to crediting Kim Jong-un? I suppose you can strut around part of Korea, with a silly haircut, feeding your uncles to wild dogs. But, he's not adding much to the debate, as far as I can tell.

[Offred]

No having a baby is not a lifestyle choice. Don't be so ignorant just based on your very limited and lucky experience of control over your fertility.

[ghostyslovesheep]

It's funny though that when I express views based on personal experience empathy understanding and compassion I am accused of being a liberal lefty - which tells me a lot

I am no where near as idealistic as I was in my youth but I can't adopt an I'm all right jack approach

And the right are just as guilty of sweeping generalisations- see benefit claimants with 36556 kids in a 'free' house with flat screen TVs etc etc

I am open to discussion but not to the idea that you stop caring about people less well off than you because you morally object to their life

[Offred]

And yes the state can afford it. Many of the cuts they are imposing will actually cost more in the short, medium and long run.

[STATUSQUO63]

Or people bragging that they are soo glad they voted tory as they will be £500 better off where there are people on the same thread in tears because they will lose 2k. It is comments like that which would get anyone back up. Or the obviouse lazy feckless breeder stuff.