to ask how you will be affected by the budget announcements?

[manicinsomniac]

Sorry if there's another thread about this, I can only see lots of speculative ones.

Now that it's announced ... I admit I'm struggling to get my head around it. I don't think it's as bad as I thought? I don't think it can be that good though? I don't think there's a single thing in it that affects me. I'm not sure about any of that though because I find it all quite confusing!

So, ordinary people from ordinary families/households - how are you going to be affected, if at all?

Who knows. But considering the country had progressed and people still had children for years before the handouts, I'm not sure what your point is.

What if I told you that Italy is having lots of problems in part due to its large aging population compared to the size of the working age population, and these problems are going to intensify because young working age people are opting not to have children.

Italy is in trouble because of a nearly 50% youth unemploment rate, not because there are not enough kids to start work.

As someone pointed out upthread a bit, it's just nonsense to encourage people to have children so that there are people to support them in their own age. Then we have to support those people and so on, and meanwhile the planet is absolutely bursting at the seams.

And lest we forget - the budget has merely limited tax credits to two children, not eliminated it. This normally leads to lots of "breeding is only for the wealthy now" commentaries, as though having two children is not actually having children at all.

I wonder if the people who claim council housing is subsidised would also claim their lives, life choices, goods and services are subsidised by people who, for example, are often paid below a living wage and live in council housing.

That is a BS argument if you are trying to justify social housing. Why not provide social housing far all, and go all out communist. Then everyone who wants a job will have one, and we will all be equal.

Besides, the asinine argument there is that low wages subsidise our lifestyle. In a country where even the poorest 'poor person' is richer than half the people in the world, I can only assume you are saying EVERYONE in Britain is being subsidised by the people in poverty who produce everything they eat, wear and carry?

If that is the case (and it can clearly be demonstrated to be true) then those who complain that they are only this rich, and not that rich, should be ashamed to be so ungrateful in a world with poverty and hardship they cannot even imagine. They are happy to live on the benefits of the system, but they will never be grateful or acknowledge the pain and suffering so many go through, so that we might live the life of privilege our power affords us.

You'll all survive. Suck it up. Yes we'll get less free money. We were bloody fortunate to have a Government that gives it to us in the first place. Sick of hearing people complaining, bunch of ungrateful, spoiled citizens.

Spot on. Breeding entitlement into people created dependency and addiction. The only cure to dependency and addiction is removal of the drug. We can do it slowly or all at once. Like any addicted dependents, they will scream and throw tantrums when the proverbial state nipple is taken away from them, but most will get over it. And if they don't, well, there's always the Greek solution. Just pay up until the nation is bankrupted, then leave them to cry in the gutter. That is what happens when a government hasn't the balls to stand up to its entitled masses. At least for the foreseeable future we have a government that will make the cuts needed to the welfare state. It will be painful, but only for those who don't know what's coming and don't prepare for the future. MN is a microcosm of views, but hardly representative. For the most part posters are informed, literate and able to provide lucid argument for their view. The people who will truly be floored are the masses who live on benefits who don't read forums online or have political opinion, because it's all too much for them and too scary to think about. For them, the head in the sand thing works well, until the train wreck hits them. Those are the ones we'll see crying in the streets like the pensioners in Greece. I feel sorry for them, but there is not alternative solution to achieving a sustainable welfare system, and you cannot educate sensible into those who will not even consider learning or helping themselves.

There are clearly some people who don't take from the state. I pay massively more in tax than I could ever use each year in my share of public services. Yes I might take from the state for example I drive on the roads and benefit from street lighting, police, clean streets etc but the level of tax I pay as a top rate tax payer is absolutely massive.

This is however part of being a well functioning society.

Playing devils advocate here, and this clearly in not my opinion if you've read my posts, but one might point out that you may have born and educated by the sate and that your children and partner are likely very much the same, and that only the privileged few among us ever earn enough money to actually pay for our shares of the services we avail ourselves of over our lifetimes. It is only the taxation of businesses and the value created therein that makes up the shortfall and keeps us afloat. That is the whole reason The City cannot be allowed to fail. It's net worth to our country is far greater than any money we way throw at keeping them in business.

As to your last point, and again not my personal opinion, but one might point out that being part of a well functioning society means taking care of the workers and children who are left without work or health in our ever changing job market.

Merely pointing out the flaws in your narrative there.

I can't abide the term 'life choices' as if having children is some kind of crazy, frivalous thing to do. We are humans we reproduce.

And as humans we have free will and the luxury of choice. Give over.

I also never understand why well paid people care what people with no money are doing.

It will either not affect me or I'll be slightly better off but I still think it's an awful budget on the whole as lots of people are going to be badly affected by it. Austerity is a joke though.

It isn't a budget for 'working families'. It is a budget for the rich.

irretating

No, people who pay six figure income tax sums don't work physically harder than those who earn a pittance but they generally have skills that are in very short supply, often honed after many years of study and experience. It's about supply and demand and there are people out there who can pretty much name their price because of their skill level.

You keep telling yourself that.

It is not a case that they work harder, per se. More a case that they are more productive with their time, more valuable to a company in what they are able to contribute, and more efficient in their delivery. If a person does not understand the difference between those who earn six figures (or indeed more), and those who earn five (and more specifically the low five figures), or that person understands but is not willing to, or unable to, allocate the resources to achieve that success, that goes a long way to explain their inability to earn a living.

We each get to choose our own salary in life. All life asks in return is that we pay the price for that success. If education and hard work are too much of a price to pay, then you are paid in life accordingly.

Let us not forget, some demand a high salary in life, and in return life demand their personal life be the subject to public scrutiny, or that their life bears no children, or that they must spend that life alone. At every turn they get to choose, at times that choice is success vs. desire. All our situations are the sum total of the decisions we made to get there. I regret none of mine, and whilst poor, I intend never to regret the decisions I make.

Ellie do you not understand you were born with the ability to obtain a well paying job. You were lucky to start with and not everyone is so lucky.

I also never understand why well paid people care what people with no money are doing. Likewise, the reverse. Why should the poor give a F about what the rich are doing.

The reason is, the pointy finger game is required by the political system and encouraged by the media. We must denigrate the wasteful and gluttonous excesses of the rich on TV to enrage the poor and get them to point the finger, and at the same time show the lazy bone idleness and self-righteous entitlement mentality of the poor, so that the rich May point the finger in disgust. Politically, we must foster class warfare. It separates the masses, and keeps them in control, and provided there is no solidarity, and they both believe they have no way of finding common ground, the status quo is maintained.

It matters not which side of the fence you sit on. It only matters that you remain unable to see because of the fence.

Poo you have a stunningly simplistic view of life.

So are you saying pink that everyone claiming ctc is doing so because they were born mentally/physically/other not able to do any better?

My household will be around £3000 a year worse off
because both DH and I have companies and largely pay ourselves by dividends once we know the profit for the year
and we can no longer claim the employer bonus against our NI on our salaries

The dividend change will also hit any pensioners who use investment income to live on : the richer ones are going to be well pissed that their tax bill will go sky high.

Its a disastrous budget for small businesses
and will cost a lot more than 60,000 jobs because the costs of Pension autoenrollment have not yet been factored in.

the IFS says 80% of households will be worse off.

No, but what about diagnosed SN and the many with undiagnosed SN. What about those people that are probably harder workers (and sometimes more essential) than some of the better paid but are only on a low wage?

It isn't a budget for 'working families'. It is a budget for the rich

I disagree. I think it is a budget to reverse the tide of Welfare dependency - whether working or not.

Apart from exceptional circumstances the prime responsibility for your (and your childrens) well being lies with you, not the State.

Ellie do you not understand you were born with the ability to obtain a well paying job. You were lucky to start with and not everyone is so lucky.

Explain?

However, I will note that there are those born into abject poverty, who are oppressed for years, and come to our country and succeed in building successful businesses. You can climb out of poverty with time, effort and determination.

I am content and with relatively few worries. That is what I asked for, and I made my decisions as they were presented to me, paid the price that was asked, and here I am. I have no regrets at the moment, and I am happy.

If I wished it to be otherwise, it would be so.

If you have the ability to start with Ellie

What I mean is I have been able to buy property, have 2 different professional jobs, study for 2 degrees, because I was born with the ability.

Whereas I have a Daughter with ASD. I have seen various statistics that as many as 80% of those diagnosed on the spectrum can't work full time, if at all.

"We all get to choose our own salary in life".

What a load of absolute nonsense.

Apart from exceptional circumstances the prime responsibility for your (and your childrens) well being lies with you, not the State.

Spot on.
The world owes none of us a living. If our parents don't know that, then they cannot teach us that. So to some extent we must teach the children not to follow in their parents footsteps. The problem is, children tent to adopt their parents view of the world, if if that is one of dependancy, entitlement and oppression, then that is what we have. Multi-generational indoctrinated welfare dependents. Cutting off funding will work, although it'll be interesting to see if they actually do anything about it. I'd imaging the masses will just tut and learn to deal with it, whereas the French, Spanish, Portuguese, all face the exact same dilemma, and their populations tend to demonstrate their frustrations in public, instead of remaining on their sofas watching television.