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pensioners crying in Greece, uk residents should help them out

242 replies

marrqkashg · 04/07/2015 09:13

Really breaks my heart to see pensioners in Greece crying over their pension being HALVED! There seems to be a lack of outrage about this in the uk. I really do think our foreign aid should go to these pensioners as they are much closer than other countries we donate to.

OP posts:
Superexcited · 05/07/2015 10:48

I don't agree with the bailing out of the banks either but I think the situation in Greece is very different. The banks when bailed out have either had to repay the money or become state owned and later sold to shareholders (or that is my understanding which may be innaccurate).
Greece have been bailed out numerous times already and are refusing to / are unable to make the agreed repayments due to not making changes within their own taxation and public spending systems.

What would happen if we bailed them out again? It would just lead to a bigger debt that they are unable to repay because they don't want to cut their public spending and don't want to collect significantly more of their taxes.

If Greece cut public sector wages, increased pension age, collected significantly more taxes then people could see that they were making efforts to make the country more financially stable and would perhaps have more sympathy. But when we have seen wage freezes in our own public sector and have seen our pension age continually increase then it is difficult to gain sympathy for the Greek govt. I am also appalled that here in Britain we have so many tax loopholes and think more could be done to increase tax collection here but in comparison to Greece we are doing remarkably well.

EllieFAntspoo · 05/07/2015 11:27

Superexcited There are many flaws in your narrative of what you believe happened. Most banks that were 'bailed out' have no obligation to repay the money, and no reciprocal surrender of shares to the public purse. Greece has never been a financially viable economy at any point in the past 50 years, and we cooked the books deliberately in order to shoehorn them into the EU, with no fraud or misleading on their part, only on ours (the EU). So to make out it is their fault, and not ours, if a gross misrepresentation of fact. It is akin to offering to allow your neighbours son to sleep on your couch because his parents have kicked him out and he's going out with your daughter. Knowing that he has been in and out of prison and charges with stealing from his parent, and finding out that he has a 20 year drug addiction, and then pretending to be astonished that he has robbed your liqueur cabinet and taking him to small claims court over it.

sanfairyanne · 05/07/2015 11:28

i am appalled by all the tax loopholes and subsidies for businesses and the banking sector too. until this thread, i didnt consider myself personally resonsible for them but it seems i am because i have the option to vote once every 5 years for a choice of people who went to one out of two or three schools (and their friends and family members of course). democracy is a wonderful thing

the whole banking sector has been bailed out and no they havent repaid the money or gone to jail (noble exception of the usa)

QuintShhhhhh · 05/07/2015 11:37

Maybe we should ask that the people who has pocketed the funding for large projects (which has been left unfinished) such as building roads and other infrastructure, share the wealth internally in Greece?

I dont think we should pour any more money into Greece until they tackle corruption, tax, generous benefits and vat.

A government refusing austerity measures and reforms (like other countries like the UK and Spain has had to go through) while holding their hand out for more money, saying the rest of Europe are Terrorists for withholding funds, is not exactly a mature government fit to rule.

Superexcited · 05/07/2015 11:37

Okay Ellie, I understand that you are more informed than I am. So what do you recommend would resolve the crisis in Greece? The bail outs haven't helped them in anything but the very short term. They can't repay the debt and need more money to continue servicing their economy. If they are provided with additional loans how will it help them in the long term? How long will it be before they run out of money again?

Should they be forced out of the EU seeing as they were never financially viable enough to join in the first place without foreseeable problems? I didn't think they should have joined at the time, but they did.
If we scrap their debts but refuse further bailouts would that help them or would it mean they would still have significant financial difficulties?
Genuine questions by the way as you seem more informed than I am.

I don't think the vast majority of British people were happy with the bank bailouts.

Superexcited · 05/07/2015 11:39

Additional question ellie why did Spain and the Republic of Ireland manage to only need one bailout whilst Greece have needed many and not managed to get straight?

QuintShhhhhh · 05/07/2015 11:41

Corruption.

sanfairyanne · 05/07/2015 11:43

i dont think many people were very happy about the bank bailouts but hey, we voted in elections so its all our fault at the end of the day.

did you feel like you had that great an influence on the banks and government decisions?

i certainly didnt. silly me.

sanfairyanne · 05/07/2015 11:44

greece are being royally fucked so spain portugal and ireland dont try and default too. its not only greece in this situation. but fuck all the poor in those countries too. they voted.

Superexcited · 05/07/2015 11:48

In all fairness, the bank bailouts came mid term. Greece had an election whilst their financial difficulties were very apparent and ongoing and they opted to vote for the party that they felt would not introduce too many austerity cuts so they had more say in which path was taken than we did when the banks were bailed out. Why did the people not vote for the party that would have made essential cuts and increased collection of taxes?

Superexcited · 05/07/2015 11:59

And yes I do think that as a nation we are partly responsible for unpopular decisions and management made by our govt. we voted for them. I didn't vote for our current govt but collectively as a country we did and we are therefore stuck with them and whatever shitty decisions they make.

TalkinPeace · 05/07/2015 12:02

Slovakia, Slovenia, Portugal, Ireland : All had bailouts, all restructured their economies, all coming out the other end.

Spain : avoided a bailout but also restructuring

Greece : had multiple bailouts but flatly refuse to restructure.

Its nothing to do with the banking crisis.
Its to do with the Greek economy having been in la la land for decades

Fine, write off the current debt.
But lend them not one more drachma or euro or dollar till they sort themselves out.

That will hurt a darned sight more.

DoctorTwo · 05/07/2015 13:02

Greece should've been allowed to default back in 2010, their economy would be more or less recovered now, just like Iceland. So a few French and German banks would've gone down but it's their fault for their short termist business model coming back to bite them on the arse.

daisychain01 · 05/07/2015 14:07

Daisy- that sort of thing happens in the UK too. Don't think the misuse of EU funds is purely a Greek thing.

bakeoff I don't agree that the UK is anyway near the same league as Greece, and in any case two wrongs don't make a right, I'm sure you'd agree.

i gave the fishing boat subsidy as an isolated example but it illustrates a much bigger picture, the collective mindset that has destroyed the economy of a very beautiful country. It really is a Greek Tragedy.

Once the mentality of a whole country from its government to its citizens becomes all about deflecting responsibility, not pulling together and trying to get themselves out of the shit, and there are absolutely no checks and balances, AND their current Prime Minister is reinforcing it with his arrogance and refusal to face facts - the situation really is out of control.

CoteDAzur · 05/07/2015 14:26

"Greece has never been a financially viable economy at any point in the past 50 years and we cooked the books deliberately in order to shoehorn them into the EU"

We didn't know this at the time because they deliberately lied about their accounts. And "we" didn't cook its books, Greece did it. Your insistence on making this somehow EU's fault is incomprehensible.

CoteDAzur · 05/07/2015 14:33

Re "but banks were bailed out" - Yes, because the amounts needed were relatively small and letting them fail would have caused the apocalypse. Governments in each country handled their ailing banks in ways they thought were best, as is their prerogative.

This is a totally different kettle of fish to the question of whether or not to continue throwing money at another country. One whose citizens work less, can't be bothered to pay taxes, and elect an ungrateful and clueless radical left government to follow the feckless ones they previously deigned fit to lead the country.

CoteDAzur · 05/07/2015 14:36

"Greece should've been allowed to default back in 2010, their economy would be more or less recovered now, just like Iceland."

iceland didn't default on its national debt. It had several banks that failed. It has a population of 329,100.

Its situation has nothing to do with Greece's.

CoteDAzur · 05/07/2015 14:40

Here is IMF's recent report on Greece, for anyone who wants to understand what is really going on.

Their conclusion and recommendation:

At the last review in May 2014, Greece’s public debt was assessed to be getting back on a path toward sustainability, though it remained highly vulnerable to shocks. By late summer 2014, with interest rates having declined further, it appeared that no further debt relief would have been needed under the November 2012 framework, if the program were to have been implemented as agreed. But significant changes in policies since then — not least, lower primary surpluses and a weak reform effort that will weigh on growth and privatization — are leading to substantial new financing needs. Coming on top of the very high existing debt, these new financing needs render the debt dynamics unsustainable. This conclusion holds whether one examines the stock of debt under the November 2012 framework or switches the focus to debt servicing or gross financing needs. To ensure that debt is sustainable with high probability, Greek policies will need to come back on track but also, at a minimum, the maturities of existing European loans will need to be extended significantly while new European financing to meet financing needs over the coming years will need to be provided on similar concessional terms. But if the package of reforms under consideration is weakened further—in particular, through a further lowering of primary surplus targets and even weaker structural reforms—haircuts on debt will become necessary.

Basically, at the end of summer 2014, things were on track, interest rates had declined, and it looked like no further debt relief would be needed if the program continued to be implemented. Then Syriza government came to power and fucked it up - significant changes in policies, stalled reforms, etc. And now Greece needs more debt, and this is what will make its debt unsustainable going forward.

wordkill · 05/07/2015 16:37

Surely if pensions are being cut then the cost of living will fall massively as so few people will be able to pay the going rate. I think they should default and then start anew like Iceland did. If they revert to the drachma and devalue then they tourists will flock there will will increase tax take and be a lot more competitive as they will be able to offer the same manufacturing for much cheaper than Western Europe. It might take a few years but they will probably come out the other side better off and not shakled to the failing euro.

Gemauve · 05/07/2015 16:49

I think they should default and then start anew like Iceland did.

Iceland didn't default on its sovereign debt.

Superexcited · 05/07/2015 17:13

Reverting to the drachma and starting anew won't help with the current very low rate of tax collection which is a major contributory factor. Not changing things will just result in further economic problems down the line regardless of the currency in use. Collecting at least 80% of due taxes would help the Greek economy enormously. As would raising pension age and reducing state sector salaries.

FWIW, I think we should forget about the debt but kick them out of the EU hence they can start afresh but without the back up of any future financial assistance from the EU.

DoctorTwo · 05/07/2015 18:06

Iceland didn't default on its sovereign debt.

Did I really say that? Oh no, I didn't. As you're obviously hard of reading here's the full post:-

Greece should've been allowed to default back in 2010, their economy would be more or less recovered now, just like Iceland. So a few French and German banks would've gone down but it's their fault for their short termist business model coming back to bite them on the arse.

The banks are fucked anyway, why prolong the agony? The Ponzi scheme that is fiat money is close to popping. As Cote said on another thread, buy gold. I'd add to that buy bitcoin. And silver, because pretty soon your bank account is going to be plundered to keep the banks alive, and to democratise money we need to step away from the rapacious cunts that are the banks.

And if you actually own gold, silver and bitcoin you win. The money in your bank account is not legally yours, it belongs to the bank. But the gold, silver and bitcoin you have in your possession does belong to you.

TalkinPeace · 05/07/2015 18:09

Doctortwo
You are aware that there are massive reserves of gold and that if anybody did decide to flood the market the price would collapse.
Same with diamonds.
And silver.

The only true currency is barter.
All else is trinkets Grin

EllieFAntspoo · 05/07/2015 18:28

Superexcited Some excellent questions.

Greece cannot be 'forced out' of Europe. They can only leacpve voluntarily. No legislation exists on the EU books that allows for the expulsion of a country, and any such new legislation would require a unanimous vote. So unless Greece leave voluntarily, and I don't see them doing that, they will not be leaving the EU.

In regard to Greek's debt, they cannot be allowed to default. It is also impossible for them to repay, so it must be cancelled. They cannot default, because by doing so they trigger many trillions of dollars in credit default swaps, bets that businesses, investors and and banks have made with each other to hedge their investments against default. Like taking out gap insurance when you buy a car. So they cannot pay their debts, ever, as the EU has known for more than a decade, and they cannot legally label the debt as defaulted upon, so they have to 'restructure' again, and pass the problem on to a whole new bunch of politicians further down the line. The idea is to kick the can further down the road and decide what to do about it later.

The reason Greece needed more assistance than the others is because Greece's economy was never strong enough from inseption to form part of the union. Culturally they are more akin to their Eastern neighbours, than the Western neighbours in that business is handled more openly with bribes and services of officials are paid for in cash. Now, we call this 'corruption' in the UK, but it is how business is conducted in the majority of the world, and we are the ones who believe we are better than that and thus choose to villify that societal model. Nevertheless, we accepted them into the EU for political reasons, knowing full well that they were incapable of meeting the financial, structural or economic criteria, and we employed Goldman Sachs to create the documents, much as we created the documents lying about Sadam's threat to Europe in order to justify the invasion of Iraq. We, as a nation, use propoganda against our people when we need to shape their opinion on any given subject.

As regards the actual Greek people themselves, the citizens, their country is theirs to run as they see fit. We cannot help them. We, as citizens cannot even influence their thinking, as, like us here in the UK, their thinking is dictated to them, and controlled by their media. They are fed a constant barrage of propoganda, just as we are.

What is most important to us, should be to recognise the actions that are at play here, the forces acting upon the country, and their interests and motivations. The only thing we can do is learn to see what is happening, so as to see how it is happening and at what rate, within our own countries. Learning from these sorts of catastrophes, which are completely predictable and created deliberately by man, is the best we you or I have of protecting our families' futures.

There are those in Greece who did read the news, did do the analysis, and did see this coming. Many billions were removed from the banking system in the weeks prior to the bank closures and the capital controls being rolled out. So many Greeks did not have their heads in the sand, and will not be queuing up for their €60 a day allowance, of their €120 a week pension.

If one feels so magnanimous or charitable that they genuinely wish to contribute to the country, they would most benefit from tourists arriving with wads of cash, not flying in on predetermined package holidays or booking hotels with major companies. They need the money. Thompson and Expedia do not. So now is the time to be brave, pack a suitcase, book a flight with your credit card, and arrive in Greece, step out of the airport, and say to the taxi driver, "I have no hotel, can you take me to somewhere clean, where the food is good." Not the sort of thing to do with a family, but a very exciting business trip, or weekend away with a spouce.

EllieFAntspoo · 05/07/2015 18:39

Cote

We didn't know this at the time because they deliberately lied about their accounts. And "we" didn't cook its books, Greece did it. Your insistence on making this somehow EU's fault is incomprehensible.

That is complete bullshit. Goldman Sachs were employed to cook the books, deliberately. Goldman Sachs is owned by the same people who own the ECB. The financial stability and liquidity of nations is very well known at the level at which nations transact. You are naive to believe the BS you are fed by your newspaper or television.

And you go on to justify the position by posting a report by the IMF, again, the same entities who own and operated the Central Banks. Do you have any information that is not published by the very organisations currently screwing Greece? It is akin to saying, "The NHS is not wasting money because look, here is a report they produced showing they only wasted £4.23 last year."

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