pensioners crying in Greece, uk residents should help them out

[marrqkashg]

Really breaks my heart to see pensioners in Greece crying over their pension being HALVED! There seems to be a lack of outrage about this in the uk. I really do think our foreign aid should go to these pensioners as they are much closer than other countries we donate to.

[EllieFAntspoo]

TalkinPeace While it is fun to revel in the anguish of the Greek people and the decisions their governments made to get them here, it serves no practical purpose. A better use of our time would be learning from their experience, and those of the Cypriots, the Agentinians, and the Vensuellans, all of whom have those within their communities who know how to survive and flourish in failing economies.

Incidentally, more millionaires were created in the Great Depression that in the decades either side of it. If we do enter a decade of war and turmoil, you get to choose which side of that wealth transfer you wish to be on. Personally, I would bet against the debt, by holding real assets. Backed into a corner, with a week to go before the banks close, and not having already got my money out of the country and into safe assets, I'd take a Mecedes and a box of hand tools over a cashiers cheque for a bank that may be bankrupt next week anyway.

Were they stupid for not having their savings in hard assets and offshore six months beforehand? Yes. Were they stupid for still living in the country when they could be living in the UK and competing with our unemployed for work? Yes. But the idiots in all societies eventually take their head out of the sand. It's having them their in the first place that makes them idiots. Not what they do after they open their eyes.

[CoteDAzur]

Yes Ellie, I know nothing about economics. You've got me

All I have is graduate-level education and many years of experience working in financial markets, both on the sell side and on the buy side. No, I was never an accountant, but some knowledge of accounting is of course essential when working with financial statements.

"people in Greece were buying Mecedes cars because they believed they would not depreciate in value against the backdrop of a depreciating currency."

That's nonsense and I certainly hope you know it. People fecklessly buying Mercedes cars with EU aid money were just doing what feckless people do - spend money unwisely rather than invest it for a rainy day.

"When a currency fails, all other assets hold greater value"

No, They Don't. I'd understand investing in gold coins or some such, but not a car which loses value on the first day you own it.

"there are many cars that do not depreciate in value"

There is no such thing. You are being silly.

"you've made one step, now take a look at who owns those entities?"

I've made one step, have I? You mean who owns the American investment funds that own Goldman Sachs? Please don't say you don't know what an investment fund is.

[TalkinPeace]

Ellie
I think you should read a lot more J K Galbraith.

[mijas99]

Ellie - nobody is idiotic for staying in the country of their birth however bad the situation

Also let's put these into context, people are not starving in Greece, just like they are not starving here in Spain where I live or in the UK despite the millions who go to food banks

The Greek crisis is interesting and important as a game changer. I empathize with the Greeks because I see how they have been screwed over by previous governments and the current liberal capitalist system. I am rooting for their self determination. That is what countries need again. The right to set domestic policies without influence from Berlin, Brussels or financial institutions. Give the people what they voted for

[EllieFAntspoo]

Cote

^"you go on to justify the position by posting a report by the IMF, again, the same entities who own and operated the Central Banks"

Umm... ECB doesn't own EU countries' central banks. It's the other way around: Central Banks own the ECB.

ECB doesn't operate member states' central banks, either. Seriously, you are very wrong on the details, Ellie.^

I used the word 'entities' to mean 'individuals; groups of'. Organisations, all of them, everywhere, are owned by, operated, controlled and run by people. You need to look at people who own and operate institutions, not the facade of the institution itself. Better still, don't look. It's a far warmer happer place just believing the Keynesian view of the world, and you can always get your €60 out of the cashpoint if the bank doesn't open for you one day. :)

Illuminati? That's a media vox pop sideshow byline. I'm sure you'll find it in the Daily Mail or wherever, but is very much doubt we have a bunch of devil worshipping men in cloaks roaming the planet plotting the return of the anti-Christ.

[Gemauve]

"there are many cars that do not depreciate in value" There is no such thing.

There is, but not relevant to this debate. No asset is worth more than someone will pay for it, but a Ferrari 250 GTO is probably as good an investment as a good quality Picasso. Such cars are extremely rare, however, so your general point stands. And the idea that a Mercedes is a store of value in a Eurozone economy is of course laughable. It is quite a good store of value in a non tax-paying, cash, non-reporting economy however.

[EllieFAntspoo]

TalkinPeace I prefer Ludwig von Mises, or Milton Friedman, both of whom have been proven more accurate over time.

[Boardingblues]

Greece hasn't been affected by a natural disaster or war, they have been affected by years of living in economic Lalaland! The entirety of the Greek economy is underpinned by a culture of tax evasion. It is sad and I feel for the people who are suffering, but you do not need a degree in economics to understand that you cannot live beyond your means indefinitely.

My advice is to save your money; we don't know where this is going yet and you may find that you need it!

[CoteDAzur]

"a Ferrari 250 GTO is probably as good an investment as a good quality Picasso"

Except that it will slurp up an incredible amount of money in maintenance and God forbid if it's even scratched. And even that will depreciate, because unlike Picassos, cars and other machinery have a useful life. Not that it matters. As you say, the idea that Greek fishermen bought Mercedes cars rather than new boats with EU aid money because they foresaw Greece's financial crisis and wanted to invest in a non-depreciating asset is of course ludicrous.

[mijas99]

Gemauve- buying anything including cars is a good option if you think the bank won't have your money by the end of the week

Remember that fiat currency has no real value and is based on a debt servicing economy . As soon as people lose confidence in it you may as well burn the notes for heating.

Remember that the UK has printed off 10s of billions of pounds over the past 5 years equivalent to stealing 10,000s of opunds of escuela and everyone in the UK yet novia y has said a word . In the mes time salaries have dropped 7pc and property increased 30pc. This is called the asset grab phase. Asset values are completey overleveraged because those in the know know that fiat money is becoming worth less and less. The worry is that one day we will be carrying out money in wheelbarrows

[CoteDAzur]

"Organisations, all of them, everywhere, are owned by, operated, controlled and run by people."

Finally, you say something I can agree with

"You need to look at people who own and operate institutions, not the facade of the institution itself."

Because those people rule the world?

What exactly is your conspiracy here? Come on, you know you want to tell us all about it.

[Gemauve]

As you say, the idea that Greek fishermen bought Mercedes cars rather than new boats with EU aid money because they foresaw Greece's financial crisis and wanted to invest in a non-depreciating asset is of course ludicrous.

Aside from all the other arguments, a new fishing boat would be just as good (or bad) a store of value as a new C Class, and more likely to generate an income.

[CoteDAzur]

"stealing 10,000s of opunds of escuela and everyone in the UK yet novia y has said a word"

A what?

[mijas99]

Boardingblues - tax evasion is estimated to run at about 25pc in Greece, 20pc in Spain and 15pc in the UK so again, it is Just a matter of degrees

All our economies have the same fundamental problems, the difference is the timing of when it gets too much I.e. Who gets scapegoated when

[Gemauve]

Gemauve- buying anything including cars is a good option if you think the bank won't have your money by the end of the week

Cars are a remarkably shit thing to buy in that situation, as they're useless once the petrol runs out. And if there's no money in the banks, the petrol just ran out.

But this argument is ludicrous. The contention that Greek fishermen bought Mercs in the late noughties because they predicted a run on Greek banks five years hence is beyond silly.

[mijas99]

Cotedazor - apologies predictive text went haywire between different language keyboards I have set up

[Gemauve]

In fact, if you think the bank won't have your money by the end of the week, fuel would be a remarkably good thing to stockpile. In the tanks of your boat, perhaps.

[EllieFAntspoo]

That's nonsense and I certainly hope you know it. People fecklessly buying Mercedes cars with EU aid money were just doing what feckless people do - spend money unwisely rather than invest it for a rainy day.

Now you are taking a report about what people are doing in the immediate run up to a collapse, and conflating them with the actions of what people have reported wasteful Greeks did in the past. Well done you.

There is no such thing. Don't be silly.

Again, you are absolutely right. Rowen Atkinson bout a McLaren F1 for £640K in 1997 and it depreciated so much that he only managed to get £8 for it. No, sorry, that was eight million pounds. It 'dropped in value' to eight million pounds. That is an astonishingly 'depreciating' asset. Your financial definition of the word 'depreciating' is remarkably different to mine. This sort of misunderstand about what is an asset, and what is a liability may well be the root of why the banking system is failing.

[CoteDAzur]

"a new fishing boat would be just as good (or bad) a store of value as a new C Class, and more likely to generate an income"

That's where this whole "Mercedes" thing came from:

daisychain01 Sun 05-Jul-15 09:01:43
Interestingly I just heard someone say their Greek friend living in a small fishing village told him that the EU subsidy given to fishermen for new boats was spent on .... luxuries like Mercedes cars.

... from which Ellie came up with the hilarious claim that Greek fishermen must have bought Mercedes cars rather than new boats with EU handouts because they must have foreseen that the country would one day be in financial crisis and cars would be good commodities to invest in "because they don't depreciate"

[mijas99]

Gemauve - you have a limited imagination. A car will still be worth something in two years time even if sat in your garage, you could even export it, but your savings may not be worth anything at all

[CoteDAzur]

"Rowen Atkinson bout a McLaren F1 for £640K in 1997"

Right. That's what we want to compare the handouts Greek fishermen got to buy new boats

And of course appreciation in value as a rare car becomes a classic is representative of whether cars depreciate in value over time or not.

Sleep tight Ellie. Tomorrow is another day

[CoteDAzur]

"A car will still be worth something in two years time even if sat in your garage, you could even export it, but your savings may not be worth anything at all"

Go buy gold if you are worried that your currency might soon be worthless. That is what will appreciate in value when local currency tanks, if only because its price is quoted in USD.

[EllieFAntspoo]

Cote No, that was your assumption. I looked at the car sales figures, and car sales in Greece jumped by 47% in April. It was a precursor to the exodus of money out of the banking system in May and June. Any reference to historic cases of fisherman squandering money on cars was your assumption, not mine. I have never mentioned any such thing.

[CoteDAzur]

It was not an assumption. It was a reference to daisychain's post below. That's where the Mercedes meme came from. Then you said they must have been buying Mercedes cars as a store of value because they predicted the crash.

And on that note, have a nice evening

daisychain01 Sun 05-Jul-15 09:01:43
Interestingly I just heard someone say their Greek friend living in a small fishing village told him that the EU subsidy given to fishermen for new boats was spent on .... luxuries like Mercedes cars.

[EllieFAntspoo]

Cote No, you are floundering around now. The example was offered only as a direct rebuttals to your assertion that there is no such thing as cars that do not depreciate.