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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To feel like this.....changes to admissions criteri-Gutted!!!!

57 replies

SuziWills1 · 26/06/2015 10:21

Hi this is Mr fest post on netmums but I've been lurking for a while through the forums. I need advise about my Ds's school and moving up to secondary. Now before I safari me just say that we are a catholic family and we want our kids to go to catholic school. I realise that there have been some debates lately about the admissions criteria and that some of you don't think that it's fair to be baisis towards certain children and I totally understand that but bare with me whilst I explain.

I have three children. Ds is 11 (year 6) Dd is 10 (year 5) and my youngest Dd is 3 going on 4. Years ago when it came to applying for our eldest to go to school we chose our local catholic primary as first choice, but as it was heavily subscribed he didn't get a place, neither did Dd a year later so they both started at the local community school with a plan to move them if a place came up at the catholic primary.

As it turned out no places became available for my Ds but a place became available two years ago for my Dd who was at the time half way through year 3. After much consideration and talking with dd we decided to take the place at the Catholic school and she has flourished. Ds did not want to move if there were a place available anyway as he only had years 5 and 6 to complete and he wanted to stay with his friends, which was understandable.

If I'm not being clear I apologise, but basically if you didn't go to a Catholic primary school you stood little chance of getting into the secondary school. We had/have our heart set on this school but it was no surprise to learn that our Ds this year did not get a place, simply because he didn't go to a Catholic primary, so he's now due to start at a non faith school close to home, which he's happy about.

So anyway we've endured two years of shuttling back and forth to two primary schools but have been happy with this as we knew that our Dd would be at the top of the criteria list along with her friends so you can imagine my shock when she came out of school on Monday with a letter telling us parents that from September of this year the feeder secondary school that we hoped Dd would go to is changing it's criteria significantly, and a wave of anxiety came over me.

Basically this was the top four criteria (which is as far as the governors can admit to as its oversubscribed every year)

1). Looked after children/statements
2). Baptised Catholic children who live within one of the parishes named above AND who have received their primary education at a Catholic school.

3). Baptised Catholic children who will have a brother or sister at the the school at the time of admission
4). Baptised Catholic children from other parishes who have received their primary education at a Catholic school.

The criteria from September is this

1). Looked after children/statements
2). Baptised Catholic children who have a brother or sister at the school at the likely time of admission.
3). Baptised Catholic children who live within the parishes (there are 7 local parishes)
4). All other baptised Catholic children.

Now as you can see the school are still prioritising baptised Catholic children but my daughter has now gone from being in the highest category after looked after/statemened children to being in the second category. Now this in itself wouldn't bother me as its just simply switching the categories round and she would still stand a good chance of getting into the school but it's the fact that they've now took away the stipulation of Catholic primary school.

You see, with the schools old criteria the category my Dd was in stipulated that you had to have gone to Catholic primary school which was fine as she now goes to the feeder primary so it meant that she would only be "up against" three other feeder Catholic schools to secure her palace and for years and years the secondary school have accepted all children from these primary schools who wanted a place and even had palaces left over for children from Catholic schools in other parishes and for some who weren't baptised at all, so you can see how I felt confident that my dd would get a place.

But is that they've changed the criteria she now has siblings above her and will now potentially have parents applying for their children who are baptised but go to non faith primaries, and it gets down to that then I don't think she will stand a chance of getting in as we live 1.9 miles away so hardly a stones throw. I know I'm rambling and there definitely more pressing issues in the world but I feel really worried and kind of gutted that this has happened. We moved our daughter firstly because we wanted her to get the Catholic education that she was denied in the first place when applying for reception and secondly so that she could get the best education possible and this secondary school was it! I just don't know what if anything I can do? I'd feel awful if she was refused a place at the high school and after making all new friends didn't have the opportunity to move up with them all. Plus my youngest dd is about to move to the feeder primary school this Septemebr and the hope was that he too would go on to the secondary, plus like I said, both of these schools are 2 miles from our home so I've already made the commitment to driving them there and back every day for the next 7 years or so and feel a bit sick at the thought that it was all for nothing. Please somebody tell me I'm worrying over nothing:)

OP posts:
anothermakesthree · 26/06/2015 12:16

I do feel for you. Just a point though, you say why would a parent choose a Catholic secondary if their child hasn't attended a Catholic primary? As you discovered with your son, there were not enough places at the primary for all those that wanted them as it was heavily oversubscribed, so like you many Catholic families missed out. Should those families miss out on secondary also? Perhaps the secondary school has changed its criteria to reflect this? Another way of looking at it is that the changes give more children a chance of some years of Catholic education, as it has put the 'non Catholic primary school' attendees on the same footing as those that attend a Catholic primary.

Where We are in London the large faith schools have dropped feeder school priority. They did this gradually over 4 years though (gradually reducing the number of 'guaranteed' places for feeder schools). Perhaps this would have been a more fair way of dealing with families like yourselves.

PenelopePitstops · 26/06/2015 12:18

They are well withing their rights to change their admission criteria.

To me it seems fairer to allow siblings priority. Those baptised as Catholic should come first.

SuziWills1 · 26/06/2015 12:19

OMG SoupDragon you don't have to rub it in. And no, I don't think I'm the only parent this has ever happened to. I didn't manage to secure my kids a place at catholic primary initially but I held out for one and ended up accepting one and uprooting my dd thinking it would be the best thing for her. There are closer catholic primary schools to us that I could walk to that would take me five minutes but they had no places so I accepted one two miles away that some mornings takes half an hour to get to due to traffic.

I've also committed to sending my Dd there too which em and another 7 years of schools runs in the car instead of a 5 minute walk everyday but this I did not mind as I thought I was doing the best thing them and giving them an opportunity to get an excellent education, if that's not commitment I don't know what is.

OP posts:
yellowcurtains · 26/06/2015 12:20

I do understand why you're so upset. Your eldest missed out becausee he didn't meet the criteria. You jumped through their hoops to ensure DD does,and they move the bloody goalposts! It is unfair (considering families only have five months notice before applications go in).
But most of my brain just thinks- meh. The state has no business providing religious education of any flavour. I think there should be no public money going into any religious school. People that want a religious education should pay for it, same as peoplt that want music education or dance education have to. There are scholarship and Bursaries for those so religious organisations could pay for students to go in a similar manner. The Catholic church is one of the richest bodies in the world. Or children can go at the weekend as those that want to give their children language education do.

SuziWills1 · 26/06/2015 12:25

And I've already said I agree with you in that siblings should be given priority, I don't personally see the point in changing the ranking though as like i said most of these siblings would of gotten a place anyway as they also live within the parishes, I've no problem with this. What I have a problem with is now the school have opened up the possibility of more children applying and ones from non catholic primary schools so where as before my daughter stood a great chance of getting in now I think the school will become heavily oversubscribed and it will come to down to distance and how far you live from the school. And as we aren't close by my dd will be further down the list despite going to catholic primary than some of the kids who live closer but who haven't been to catholic primary.

OP posts:
PenelopePitstops · 26/06/2015 12:29

Are you even Catholic?

SuziWills1 · 26/06/2015 12:32

And in a sense Yellowcurtains, I agree with you, and if I had the money to pay for it believe me I would. Like I said we are a practicing Catholic family but we allow our children to think for themselves, we wouldn't purposely to chose to send them to a school if we didn't think it was right for them, regardless of it being catholic. But I genuinely feel the the primary and secondary school are the best places for them. The staff are incredibly warm, supportive, friendly etc and the facilities and ofsted reports for both schools are amazing. I feel like I've tried my absolute best for my kids and after feeling I've let down my eldest this year by not securing a place for him I'd feel awful if the same were to happen with my dd's

OP posts:
TheRealMaryMillington · 26/06/2015 12:38

I don't really agree with faith schools at all, as I think they are inherently unfair to all of us heathens who can't access those schools, despite our taxes paying for them. But within the unfair system I can see how upset you would be at what seems like a last minute moving of goal posts.

On the up side:
-you and your DS are happy with the school he is going to (presumably with friends), so guess this is a good second option?

  • many of DDs friends at school will now be in the same position and may end up going to the same second choice?
  • within a distance measure, which I guess will be applied within criteria, I am not sure that 1.9 miles is terribly far away, though depends on your area (our nearest inaccessible to us faithschool is 1.2 miles away in a City)
  • next year is a low-ish birth year, there will be fewer kids to find places for

Have any of the other schools locally also changed their criteria making them more or less accessible

I don't think all is lost OP

SoupDragon · 26/06/2015 12:41

OMG SoupDragon you don't have to rub it in

Oh calm down! You said you didn't understand why anyone would send their child to catholic secondary when they haven't been to catholic primary: you are such a parent. I am simply pointing out that your statement was clearly ridiculous.

The new criteria would be fairer to people like you who didn't get their child into a specific catholic feeder primary or any catholic primary at all. Would you have complained had they changed for your DS's year?

TheRealMaryMillington · 26/06/2015 12:43

You haven't let down your son.

He is going to school with his friends and is happy. You were flexible with your own wishes and it has worked out well so far for him. This is not something you need to feel guilty about!

IconicTonic · 26/06/2015 12:46

Why would a parent choose a catholic school if they are not Catholic, never mind if they had not been to a catholic primary?

Maybe they live within walking distance, maybe it is the best local school or has a good reputation for an extra curriculum activity the child is interested in.

What gives your child the right to take priority over other children for a place at a government funded school purely based on faith.

It is discrimination.

TheRealMaryMillington · 26/06/2015 12:48

Is it the schools themselves and their particular qualities?

Or specifically a Catholic education?
Did you/would you consider other Catholic secondary schools in the borough or nearby?

Downtheroadfirstonleft · 26/06/2015 12:51

Sorry op but I think the new criteria are fairer.

A faith school should be open to the widest number possible of children of faith, not just those who happened to get into a particular primary.

wanttosqueezeyou · 26/06/2015 12:54

They need to follow a consultation process before changing the admissions. Id be checking they'd followed this correctly.

chanie44 · 26/06/2015 13:03

OP, I sympathise.

Despite being a practicing catholic, ds didn't get into the local catholic primary because he didn't attend the nursery. The reason he didn't attend is because he went to a private nursery as both OH and I work full time and the school nursery just wasn't convenient.

The catholic school was our second choice anyway, but I think the criteria was grossly unfair, as nursery isn't compulsory yet the school take it into account.

natwebb79 · 26/06/2015 13:12

I'm sorry, I'm an atheist so my empathy for such matters is probably lacking but I'm guessing you are bringing your children up as Catholics so they are receiving a 'Catholic education' from you? Just like the many Muslim children I teach in a non-religious school receive their religious education at home from their parents and religious community? What exactly do you think is going to happen if they don't attend a faith school (I'm assuming the school your son attends is half decent as you say he is happy there).

nicoleshitzinger · 26/06/2015 13:19

OP - most people in an area where there are popular schools which are massively over subscribed feel exactly like you, regardless of their faith.

There are all sorts of reasons why someone might want a particular school. There is a girls school near me which has outstanding music provision, one of the best in the country, and I would have loved for my dd to go there as she is musically gifted.

However, she didn't get a look in as she's not a Catholic.

Luckily for your dc's they have a family who have a strong faith, and can attend church as often as they like. School is primarily about learning isn't it, not about indoctrination?

NRomanoff · 26/06/2015 13:45

The sibling rule is the fairer way to do it. Having children in different schools is very difficult even at high school. Different events to attend, sports days etc. if they are in different areas then it could mean different holidays.

Tbh the Catholic schools here have had the same criteria, that it is being changed to, since (at least) 2003. No need for a previous Catholic education. Siblings being high on priority.

The fact is OP that your son didn't want to go to the Catholic school anyway. So even if he would have got in, he wanted to stay with his friends and would move to the Catholic primary. So chances are he didn't want to go to the Catholic secondary, either.

And lots of schools are amazing. I see nothing in your reasoning that singles out Catholic schools. You want a good school, that's fair enough, but I dont quite get why it has to be the Catholic one, if you think your kids should make their own mind up about religion.

charlestonchaplin · 26/06/2015 14:04

TheRealMaryMillington I don't really agree with faith schools at all, as I think they are inherently unfair to all of us heathens who can't access those schools, despite our taxes paying for them

People who don't have children, including those who desperately want children but can't have them and those who dislike children, still have to contribute to the cost of schools.

nicoleshitzinger · 26/06/2015 14:17

"People who don't have children, including those who desperately want children but can't have them and those who dislike children, still have to contribute to the cost of schools."

Oh come on - do you really think that's a decent argument?

Can you think of any other largely publicly funded institution where it would be allowable to discriminate on the basis of faith? Hospitals? Universities?

ShadowFire · 26/06/2015 14:22

I can see that the new rules make it harder for your DD to get in, and I think YANBU to be upset about that - but I do think that the new rules are fairer.

They still prioritise Catholic children. And they give an equal chance of entry to Catholic children who were unable to secure a place at a Catholic primary school (such as your DS, if this change had been made last year).

If there aren't enough places at the local Catholic primary schools for all the Catholic children who want a Catholic education, then why should these children be further penalised for that when applying to secondary school?

Non-Catholic children are still further down the priority list. Catholic children with parents who don't want them to receive a Catholic education presumably won't apply.

TheRealMaryMillington · 26/06/2015 15:28

charlestonchaplin Educating our young people is a necessity that benefits everyone, including the childless, whose old ages and pensions will be supported by others' children when they grow old enough to work.

Selective faith schools only benefit children of parents who have a faith or are prepared to feign one, in the main, and the perpetuation of the church. No-one needs a catholic education, everyone needs a good one.

Faith schools are part of the problem of a crappy system that uses the parental "choice" dangled as a smoke and mirrors tactic to prevent parents from banding together to demand a better and fairer system for everyone.

charlestonchaplin · 26/06/2015 15:40

*Nicole "People who don't have children, including those who desperately want children but can't have them and those who dislike children, still have to contribute to the cost of schools."

Oh come on - do you really think that's a decent argument?

Can you think of any other largely publicly funded institution where it would be allowable to discriminate on the basis of faith? Hospitals? Universities?*

I think it is a very cogent argument. The State provides many more non-faith schools and also other faith schools. They are not failing to provide other children with an education. I also believe these schools are substantially funded by the Catholic church in addition to State funding.

If you consider a Catholic education to be a superior education, then maybe that is something to do with the Catholic ethos. I am not convinced that any superior results are purely due to social class because many Catholics are working class. Recent immigrants, many on low incomes, from Eastern Europe, Africa and Latin America are responsible for the boost in the numbers attending the Catholic Church.

Incidentally I was brought up as a Catholic and attended a Catholic primary school for a few years. I won't send my child to a Catholic school even though the good and outstanding schools in my area at both primary and secondary level are mostly Catholic schools because I have serious issues with the Catholic faith. Why would I want my child in that milleu?

MrsCaptainReynolds · 26/06/2015 15:47

The sooner state and religion are separate the better. This whole situation is nonsense. The fact that our taxes pay for this nonsense is an outrage.

The utter ridiculousness of prioritising children who've been to a fancy building and had some water splashed on their heads...sheesh.

charlestonchaplin · 26/06/2015 15:53

Sorry, milieu.

TheRealMaryMillington Children attending faith schools will also become useful members of society who will benefit those of other faiths and those of no faith. They are also entitled to an education and no-one pays extra to educate them. Arguably you pay less since Catholic schools are subsidised by the Catholic Church.

There are arguments against faith schools, but not, 'I pay for them but the chance of my child getting in is not as high as others.' Many State services, probably all, discriminate on some basis or other. Here you have decided that the criteria are not acceptable to you. But when you consider that the service is providing a Catholic education, prioritising those who are Catholic is only logical.

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