to think dual person 'full time' worker family households should never have become the norm?

[workingdilemma]

Was thinking about the other thread talking about tax credits etc.

Around 40 years ago, as a society we'd reached a point where one person working in a household was enough to support a young family.

Now we've ended up where it's pretty much required to have both working full time to be able to afford the same lifestyle - mainly due to the insane 'cost' of housing.

It would have been far better to have had both people in a couple working perhaps part time to allow engagement with the world of work, and also a healthier work/life balance.

Why did we end up like this? Was it all an orchestrated plan to keep the debt cycle going - after all, you can lend on two incomes now for a mortgage. Lovely jubbly for the debt pushers. Is that why the banks and governments encourage this?

I dunno, but I do yearn for a better way to deal with the problems we're having now then everyone demonising each other.

For someone who doesn't want their personal circumstances taken into account, you post an awful lot about them...

You seem obsessed with hating groups of people, based on envy, rather than doing stuff to achieve what you want. I think that's a problem. You want nice things, but you don't want to work for them.

Yeah i agree! The reasons - champagne lunches from the lobbyists, post gov directorships and shares held in nominee accounts in the spouses names perhaps?

That's pretty pathetic to read. Its so much regurgitated class hatred of people that have more than you. But of course if you did live in a modern progressive social democracy like Sweden or Denmark, as a woman you would be very much expected to work, contribute to society and to have most of your wages taken away in tax.

You also write very informally, in slang, which is fine for a teenager, but throwing a huge shot into the dark, I would guess is indicative of a lack of taking responsibility for normal adult decisions.

Are you the poster that has the huge amount of cash in the bank but doesn't want or can't get a mortgage and posts constantly complaining about your huge rent?

We have never worked so hard for such little reward what a load of utter bollocks!!!

In 1930 my Nan worked 12 hour days as a tailoress just so she could go home and share a bed with her also earning sisters. She was 15.

In 1940 there was a baby but her husband 'worked away' (getting shot at, fighting for your freedom) so she moved away from her family and friends in West London and moved in with her in-laws in Suffolk. My Nan still went out to work, leaving baby with the inlaws. Despite everything she was so very grateful that her and her baby had their own bedroom.

Some of you lot on here have got a bloody cheek. Get a grip and stop moaning. The world doesn't owe us a living.

Come to think of it MrsHenry, both of my grandmothers (and grandfathers) worked. One "went into service" and had to live away from home from age 15. The other was a nurse. Both gave up their jobs on getting married, as that's what was expected of them. Both lived in rented council housing until they died, and both were envious of and encouraged me to go to university to "better myself". I now live in a much nicer, bigger house, which is mortgaged, as a result. I know what I'd rather choose. And I wouldn't want to support a non-working partner on one salary either.

I do aplogise for the lack of formality in my both my original and previous posts on this thread. Henceforth, I shall endeavour to ensure that all responses are formulated to the highest standard. I do hope this will go some way to atone for the colloquial nature of my previous writings, and will alleviate your concerns about my immaturity. The circumstances of my life have taken a heavy toll. Whilst I am not ashamed of my tendency to fantasise about a fairer, more equitable future for all, my tendency to extrapolate this into unwarranted attacks on those who are so much more driven then I is a very ugly trait.

I hope this post finds you well, and I wish you all the best in the future. Kind Regards, workingdilemma.

OP - I could have predicted you would post something like that. I simply mean its an unusual way for an adult to write. More like a teenage wannabee delinquent. Its not colloquial, its aggressive.

Your posts do come across as a bit odd - its maybe you and not the rest of the world? Grandiose sense of self worth, of entitlement, hatred of large groups of people, and so on...sociopathy?

Generally, life for the masses has never been better than it is right now.

House prices are obscene, it's true. But even taking that into account, we've never had it so good (unless someone knows of a time in the past when we worked less/ had more free time/ better stuff/ better health and education).

Ooh a sociopath. I think you need to look up the definition of one.

They lack empathy. I would say thats pretty much the exact opposite of me. I'm trying to point out there has to be a better, more balanced, caring way for society to operate, rather than the dollar chasing absent parent syndrome that many children are confronted by.

Yeah I must be a sociopath. Excuse me whilst i go torture a spider.

(Note no spiders will be hurt post this post. I will use a piece of card, a cup and an open door to liberate him or her from the shackles of my rented home).

Generally, life for the masses has never been better than it is right now.

And for women, all the more so. Reliable contraception, decent pre- and post-partum care, rights in the workplace which although still needing more work to enforce at least exist, equality of not just opportunity but outcome in education (40 years ago, a large number of women who wanted to go to university ended up in two year Cert Ed courses, primary teaching being women's work, and ditto prospective doctors who ended up as nurses), massively less racism in our society, massively less absolute poverty (the argument about relative poverty is a different one), life expectancies ten or in some cases twenty years better, not just mortality but morbidity much improved, etc, etc.

They lack empathy

Shouting "I've got six figures in the bank, I say, did you hear, I've got six figures in the bank, no, I'VE GOT SIX FIGURES IN THE BANK*" on a forum noted for people worried about their tax credits being cut off which would make them unable to feed their children would seem a pretty good definition of that, since you mention it.

Could you tell me how much money you've got, by the way? I didn't quite catch it the first time. Was it SIX FIGURES?

I don't think personal attacks on the OP is necessary, or helpful.

Don't worry about it - I'm a big girl and it's quite illuminating. It outs those who actually do lack empathy.

Did anybody else feel that by returning to work and using childcare that you are getting your income at the expense of another women? Childcare jobs are usually so badly paid because women who do them are prepared to accept a low wage for doing a vital job.

Please stop the personal attacks on the OP as this thread is a very interesting topic that affects everyone

Op you say you don't want to get a mortgage and purchase a House from someone that paid a lot less for it, but instead you pay rent to a landlord

With that amount of cash I can't understand why you wouldn't take steps to purchase a house and reduce your outgoings significantly

I am a single parent now (abusive ex) and I am managing to pay a sizeable mortgage on one part time salary. No money for holidays etc but we enjoy life and I see plenty of my kids (even if I do have to work late into the evenings once they are in bed!)

Not really Ketchup, in my area they can't attract workers for the low paid childcare jobs and childminders can set their own fees. Even still, not too many are attracted into it. Availability has a lot to do with low supply.

OP, how would you deal with the fact that many women just prefer to be in a dual-income situation? They're not trying to make your life harder, just make theirs better.

Please ignore my situation. I apologise for ever posting any even slight detail on this thread. It is simply not relevant to the discussion. This was intended as a general topic. Sorry, but I will not respond to any further post referring to any of my personal circumstances.

OP, how would you deal with the fact that many women just prefer to be in a dual-income situation? They're not trying to make your life harder, just make theirs better.

Each to their own - personal choice is personal choice. The problem is the law of unintended consequences, as I had said earlier. We've covered this, so not going back over old ground. There's no point in going round in circles.

Now we've ended up where it's pretty much required to have both working full time to be able to afford the same lifestyle - mainly due to the insane 'cost' of housing.

costs for things for which we are in direct competition with each other (eg housing) would be expected to rise since we all now have dual incomes (although, wage gains haven't been uniform).

but for other things, we hardly have "the same lifestyle". Basics cost considerably less. Most of us can afford some of the new gadgets offered to us. Flying now is quite normal.

well I am bloody glad that I wasable to go back to work & wasn't required to stay at home being a full time housewife.

What were my options in previous generations? My mum trained as a teacher, not particularly career minded, had 4 kids in 70s/80s, didn't work for 12 years, utterly dependent on my financially irresponsible father, always skint, went back to work, but it was a job not a career.

My gran trained as a nurse, gave it up on getting married and had 7 kids during the 40s and 50s.

Fuck either of those options. I went back to work when DS was 6 months (admittedly 20 hours a week but I was senior enough in my career that I was able to swing it) and shock horror yes my job is to pay for things like overseas holidays and other unspeakable luxuries, what an unmaternal monster.

Plus I paid $NZ70,000 for my degrees & they're not even paid off yet, why would I stop using them.

Both my nan and grandad worked full-time when my dad was a kid in the 1940's and 1950's. It wasn't that unusual, he went to nursery and a childminder.

Also, perhaps I live in a bubble but I don't think two full time workers is the norm? Not unusual certainly, but not the norm. Most couples I know with pre or primary school children have either two part time workers (say 35 hours or 4 days each) or one full time plus one part time. I can only think of one or two that are 2 full time and likewise only one or two with one fulltime plus one SAHP.

From parents and my Mum's research into her family (working class) it was common:

• to move for work (in fact, my great-grandfather committed bigamy :o after the family split up because he moved for work and my great grandmother stayed near her family)
• to have several people sharing a bedroom, not a bedroom per child or even separate rooms for boys and girls
• to live with parents until you married (and often afterwards until you could afford your own house)
• for women to be economically productive (nursery nurse for one grandmother, involved in running the family pub/hotel the other) - the great grandmother whose husband married again without a divorce took in sewing, baked for the neighbours, scrubbed floors... whatever she could find, and her 4 children all left school at 14/15 to get a job.
• to not expect to be warm or have enough food - GGM's youngest daughter is still alive (in her early 90s) and remembers ice on the inside of the windows in winter, because there was no heating, and although there was always some food, at times going hungry because there wasn't enough
• to patch and re-patch clothes, then use them as dishcloths/patching material/hand them on if they were at all wearable

It should be possible to survive on one FT income if your expectations are low enough.

Which isn't to say I think being hungry is a reasonable expectation!

But a lot of what we consider a 'reasonable' lifestyle is not necessary.

Oh, and people were prepared to walk further to work/school etc, and to use bicycles. Eat less meat, and grow some of their own veg.

I do wish at times people would consider how difficult it is to own a home on one salary.

I have my own home now but it's taken years of saving - am 40 this year and it's only a 2 bed terrace!