to think dual person 'full time' worker family households should never have become the norm?

[workingdilemma]

Was thinking about the other thread talking about tax credits etc.

Around 40 years ago, as a society we'd reached a point where one person working in a household was enough to support a young family.

Now we've ended up where it's pretty much required to have both working full time to be able to afford the same lifestyle - mainly due to the insane 'cost' of housing.

It would have been far better to have had both people in a couple working perhaps part time to allow engagement with the world of work, and also a healthier work/life balance.

Why did we end up like this? Was it all an orchestrated plan to keep the debt cycle going - after all, you can lend on two incomes now for a mortgage. Lovely jubbly for the debt pushers. Is that why the banks and governments encourage this?

I dunno, but I do yearn for a better way to deal with the problems we're having now then everyone demonising each other.

OP you are right. I recommend a superb book I've just finished by Danny Dorling called "All that is solid". It looks at the disaster that is our housing policy and how necessary it has become for governments to keep pumping it up, just to keep the show on the road. Around 67% of the uk's net worth is now equity in property. I'm no economist but that doesn't look very sound to me!

Well it makes me feel very sad when new mums want to take a few years off to enjoy their baby but simply cannot afford to do so. How did that happen?

My mum was a stay at home mum and I was born in the fifties and btw 40 years ago we did have washing machines, microwaves, telephones etc

I was a sahm for a long time and so is my daughter and DIL . My daughter has given up a lucrative career to home educate her family and my DIL hasn't been able to find a job that fits around school hours yet and my sons awkward shift pattern. When I was a young mum in the late 70s early 80 s that was quite the norm for just the father to work.

Part time nursery school was free from three years old ( I don't know what the rules are now) and it seemed to be more taken up to get the children 'ready for school' rather than so mum could work.

I certainly don't remember any child minders around. We mums would help in nursery or in the first school classes with reading etc. I'm not saying that no mums worked but it certainly wasn't the norm until they'd 'got them off their hands!'

It certainly wasn't the frenetic rushing around that most young families seem to have today.

I'm sure in different parts of the country it may have been different, this was just my experience.

Neither of us nor anyone in our industry could do our jobs part time, there are schedules to be met. They'd just get in someone else who'd work the hours needed to deliver the project on time.

What a wonderful society we have.

YANBU to think that a full quota of full-time working parents / adults in a household shouldn't have to be required to live a healthy and respectable standard of living. The shopping, cooking, cleaning, banking, organising are important tasks. It all needs to be done by someone.

But, YABU to think Now we've ended up where it's pretty much required to have both working full time to be able to afford the same lifestyle.

40 years ago my mum's family of 5 had one working white-collar parent. They ate well, wore school uniform for 'best'; rented a TV and had a two week holiday in a caravan every summer; cycled / walked / bused to school and work; watched a matinee film every Saturday. That was considered a nice life.

TBH, and I'm fully prepared to be told different, I don't think anything has changed. If 'we' now feel that one average salary of £26k can't sustain a young family then surely it's only because our own standards have increased beyond all recognition?

Are things really that bad? Can £26k really not keep a young family clothed and fed and heated and happy?

I certainly don't remember any child minders around.

I went to a child minder in the late 1960s.

Very true Gemauve about all the secretarial jobs, clothing factories. All those jobs have gone now.

Yep dowser - it was like this in the 80s too where i lived.

Pretty much all my friends had a parent at home for at least the first 7 years of their lives. The parent that worked wasn't an especially high earner either, or worked very part time.

It must be feasible then to instead of evolving into this frenetic rat race, to have evolved to share responsibility for both partners in all aspects. Instead we seem to be fighting against it - deadlines, consumerism, etc.

Its not like work actually pays any more anyway - 50k is a pisstake compared to the cost of living round here - and i say that without a hint of apology regardless of how ridiculous that is. For people on less then that - and thats pretty much 90% of people - its frightening.

SHIT!!!! Reading Dowser's email I've just realised how bloody old I am!!

So, my story about my mum's family was actually 50+ years ago.

30 years ago both my mum and my dad were working their arses off in the emergency services to just pay the bloody mortgage. They would both work opposite shifts, literally only seeing each other in the hallway for weeks at a time. We had a car, got good Christmas and birthday presents, all had bikes. But there was nothing extravagant. We had a UK holiday every few years. There were no 'hobbies' or classes. Police and Nurse pays were disgustingly low and interest rates were 13%.

26k??? Before tax? Doubling it and its still a struggle.

Have you seen the price of a place in a typical south east city? 1500pm rent for a family home.

There goes the 26k after tax.

I find it quite scary at times that I can go back 40 years and find I'm a young woman and not a teen age!

How the heck did that happen ;-)....?

My dad worked shifts and wasn't a huge earner but rents were cheap and they only had me so we had a good lifestyle. Not extravagant but we got a car when I was five and apart from one holiday abroad we always holidayed in the uk.

I would *love& 13% interest rates (which was for about a week) and house prices at 20% of what they are. Because salaries havent gone up 5x since then. Less than doubled. Halve my salary now and I'd be better off in that environment. And that interest rate was very brief.

High interest rates would stop the reliance on credit.

Well, yes. £1500 is a lot of money.

I live in an area which is only just north of the Watford gap and 3 bed semi only need cost £700 a month.

But, anyway, wouldn't a one salary family on £26k get some tax credits? And child benefit, obviously.

And while we're on the subject, why are so many families renting? What have been the stumbling blocks that means people aren't able to buy before they have their kids? Paying money for rent each month must be pretty depressing.

Please excuse my ignorance. I'm not trying antagonise - I am genuinely interested.

"I went to a child minder in the late 1960s"

I went to one in the early 70s. Both my parents and all my grandparents worked (maternal GPs ran a shop).

Totally agree.

I've just dropped my hours to three days a week after becoming totally stressed. I don't need to work full time financially. I'm stuffing my career up doing this, my boss isn't happy and has said she thinks I'm not committed, etc. Well boo hoo. Don't care.

Dh makes sarcastic comments about me lazing about. Bad luck. He earns more as he's been able to stay full time whereas I was part time previously when dd was little. Have been full time for the last four years and it's nearly killed me. Dd is a lot happier that I'm home more.

I can remember mortgage rates hitting 16 per cent and here's a record of 18 per cent

homes.yahoo.com/blogs/spaces/nov-13-mortgage-rates-last-topped-18-day-184848921.html

What have been the stumbling blocks that means people aren't able to buy before they have their kids?

Fewer than in the past, presumably, as home ownership is at an all time high.

That might be down to all those home-owning old folks refusing to die.

But, anyway, wouldn't a one salary family on £26k get some tax credits? And child benefit, obviously.

Most don't want tax credits. Most don't want child benefit. Most would rather have, unless I'm wrong - proper wages for a days work.

And while we're on the subject, why are so many families renting? What have been the stumbling blocks that means people aren't able to buy before they have their kids? Paying money for rent each month must be pretty depressing.

Average family house price round here - 300-400k. Minimum.

How does that square with earning 26k?

Yes one could again buy into the abhorrent state scheme of 'help to buy', but saving a deposit takes a while.

OK, so I saved a six figure sum whilst earning 20-30k per year in 10 years, but I am a very, very odd person. Most people could not do that, and I don't think they should have to because, frankly, very few would be capable of living in the conditions I chose to to achieve that.

Knowing what it takes to save a huge amount up on an average salary also makes house prices seem even more appalling by the way.

Fewer than in the past, presumably, as home ownership is at an all time high.

Erm, no it's not, and it's declining rapidly.

hoa.org.uk/campaigns/publications-2/the-death-of-a-dream-the-crisis-of-homeownership-in-the-uk/

Unless of course by home ownership, you mean individuals with multiple leveraged buy to lets. That's going up.

Most don't want tax credits. Most don't want child benefit. Most would rather have, unless I'm wrong - proper wages for a days work.

I'm sure most would like both. But that's not the point. There used to be affordable council housing. Now there's tax credits.

But, going back to the OP. If people would like to live as a single earning family, I do think there are places in this country you can earn an average wage and afford to live a 1970s version of a comfortable life. Clearly not where you live. Perhaps you should consider relocating.

We were a single earner family when our DCs were small, (mid nineties) we just bought our house before prices went crazy though. And we had a very 1950s standard of living: one car, camping holidays, few material treats but lots of cheap fun. And we rattled out three kids in five years so it was a bit hectic at times. Happy days, I feel I was very fortunate.

Interest rates were high, but you were getting wage increases to match.

We don't. Most have to fight to get more than a couple of percent - whilst housing skyrockets due to the oldies using their 'equity' to buy another couple of buy to lets.

But, going back to the OP. If people would like to live as a single earning family, I do think there are places in this country you can earn an average wage and afford to live a 1970s version of a comfortable life. Clearly not where you live. Perhaps you should consider relocating.

Yeah I'll leave my elderly parents to fend for themselves. Fuck them.

Thanks for that.

You could always take them with you working.