to think dual person 'full time' worker family households should never have become the norm?

[workingdilemma]

Was thinking about the other thread talking about tax credits etc.

Around 40 years ago, as a society we'd reached a point where one person working in a household was enough to support a young family.

Now we've ended up where it's pretty much required to have both working full time to be able to afford the same lifestyle - mainly due to the insane 'cost' of housing.

It would have been far better to have had both people in a couple working perhaps part time to allow engagement with the world of work, and also a healthier work/life balance.

Why did we end up like this? Was it all an orchestrated plan to keep the debt cycle going - after all, you can lend on two incomes now for a mortgage. Lovely jubbly for the debt pushers. Is that why the banks and governments encourage this?

I dunno, but I do yearn for a better way to deal with the problems we're having now then everyone demonising each other.

morethan - don't worry, LotusLight just has a problem with rigid thinking.

(she thinks it's everyone else's problem, not hers...)

I agree morethan that some SAHM really want to do it but on MN and in RL I often see/hear "I had no choice because of CC, unhelpful DH refusing to compromise etc

The choice is often give up work or you will end up doing everything domestically, CC while the man carries on as normal.

Its on thread after thread .
I think cognitive dissonance comes into play also- "I had no choice but to give up WOH" becomes "Its better for DC to have a sahp".
What many don't realise is that the WOHP often are not facing the same stark choice of Unhappy family life or give up WOH.
There is often a balanced way, one picks up, one drops off, flexibility etc
As you know I had a lovely flexible PT job when my DC were little - so no CC, cooking from scratch and lots of time together and a happy balanced life.

But namechange - this thread was started by an unhappy full time worker. It cuts both ways - there are just as many people on Mumsnet who feel they are wage slaves as feel they are slaves to their families; and plenty more who think they are slaves to both. Maybe it goes back to your point about locus of whatever... some people feel out of control of their situation, whereas others feel they have had control over where they end up, and some people just have a greater tendency than others to be happy with what they have got, regardless of how they ended up with it.

What I object to is people telling others that they can't possibly be happy with what they've got, they must have been brainwashed into thinking it...

I should add that if I were to be a SAHM ( a bit late now)
I would demand a portion of my DH salary to be mine alone, have a pension paid up fully and ensure that he did a fair amount of chores ( he does)

I don't know whether that would be financially feasible tbh.

I do think that caring for children is work and damn hard work at that !
I preferred to share it with DH and I feel lucky we could do it that way and I keep a career I love.

I agree rabbit its best to do what makes you happy but not everyone has that choice.

I think Lotus is probably referring to the threads where Ops refer to their uncooperative, sexist men leaving them to do everything.

We all have to either do chores or pay someone else to do it, a lot of men assume their wives will do it.
Having a FT job shouldnt make you immune to domesticity sits drinking wine and knitting, while DH cooks dinner

We are all different, luckily. I don't think it too difficult to understand that we don't all want the same life. It is just as well or the country would crack up. Well done Lotus, if you have the life you want, but it is the sort of life that would lead me to deep depression. I wouldn't want to own an island anywhere. I consider myself the lucky one because I have had time to do all the things that I want to do, without being constrained by paid employment. I have been able to work part time. I can't think why I would be a martyr when I have things just the way that I want them.

rabbitstew

Oh, music to my ears. The amount of times people have tried to catch me out, not just here but in rl too.
They think its some sort of game where they want to trip you up to admit you aren't happy or dh doesn't pull his weight, or little wifey with no brain.
I could go on but the thread isn't long enough
I am so glad there are people like Lotus and namechange who really enjoy the work they do, or the money/ island achieved , because they are role models for people who want to keep their career and raise their children.
My objection are the assumptions sometimes made.
I am raising my dd just as my parents did me. I tell her she can do anything she sets her mind to and the only person who can stop her is herself. Qualify to be a brain surgeon and you can be a train driver if you like. Qualify to be a train driver and you won't be a brain surgeon. That's not to say I want her to be a brain surgeon but certainly to reach her potential and choose something that makes her happy.
at 10 she had settled for a cottage by the sea in Wales, she intends to live her as a retreat when she has a break from her career as a famous opera singer.
I'm not going to tell her to stop dreaming.

I agree rabbitstew - if people want top jobs, to pay school fees and to buy islands then I am very happy for them if they achieve it. I just wish that they allowed other people the same choices and allowed for the fact that they were considered choices and nothing to do with conditioning, brain washing and expectations.
I also wish that they wouldn't think that they are some sort of ideal that we should aim for or be envious. Each to their own.

I will support my children in whayever they want to do- as did my parents.

Lotus/Xenia

in your world of all being high earners, saving the world and the rainforest and being high flyers, who is going to wipe your bottom if you are unlucky enough to have Alzheimers and find yourself sitting in your own crap......

Well, obviously Lotus would like that to be an unrelated, downtrodden male inferior who is too cowed to consider stealing off her in her senility.

It is interesting that one of her children has opted out of her way of life. I always thought with 5 children you couldn't have every single one wanting to emulate. I have asked her before who will service her car, cut her hair, clear her bins etc but never had a satisfactory reply. I remember one lot of advice she gave a woman who wanted to be a cleaner and that was start your own business as an agency for cleaners- it rather misses the point that some people have to do the actual cleaning!

Well said Rabbitstew, morethanpotatoprints and Mehitabel6.

I am very fortunate to live in a part of the UK covered in deserted mountains and islands. I don't feel the need to own or control them or anyone on them and I spend time on them whenever I like.

My DF and DFIL both had private educations and did not choose them for their DC. DH and I have both outstripped them educationally and professionally and happily send our DC to the local comp where they are being educated by the Jean Brodie definition.

We have a home that suits our needs and it is not so large that we need staff to maintain it. I have a small communal garden so on sunny days we take off where we fancy instead of being tied to our own backyard.

I had a very successful career prior to having DC and during our 20s me and DH worked hard and played hard. We are both in semi-retirement in our 40s raising our DC as 12 hour a day jobs and partying do not sit very well with raising young family and in any case we have been there and done it.

Hoping this does not sound too self congratulatory as I am just trying to counter the "doing it all at once for as long as possible" philosophy with mine which is one of working hard and being prudent with your resources to make the most of your choices.

I tell my 3 DD to follow their dreams and their Grannie tells them "the worker is always worthy of their hire and to remember who they are" (her code for only work for what it is worth to you and never let some man push you around).

Each to their own but there are many many ways to skin a cat.

Both DH and I started our working life with nothing but also with no student debt overhang. House prices were depressed throughout the 90s. My regret is that the current generation is not starting with the same level playing field we had.

Lotus cannot get her head around the fact that someone would actually choose a state comprehensive above a private school if they had the money- and yet it is a perfectly valid choice. I would choose it first. Private education or home education would be a last resort if I felt failed by the state system.
My 3 children are all very happy in their first choice careers- they have done just as well as their cousin who was educated privately from 3yrs to 18yrs- without having paid thousands in fees.
MN seems full of people who make decisions for themselves and then assume it must be the best decision for everyone. I have never understood it because we are all so different. I can't see why this isn't accepted.
I can see a lot of advantages in the way that you have done it howabout - I could manage a high powered lifestyle when young, but then there is a lot of appeal in saying 'done that' and opting out.
I can see that some people are driven and would be utterly lost if they didn't have an important job. I know several workaholics and why not if it is what makes you happy?
I am now retired and have never been happier, or busier. It suits me. I have my health, am very fit, my children are independent, and I am free! I can do what I like on a whim, I have many interests and I have several very fulfilling volunteer jobs that I love.
I don't have any regrets about staying at home when mine were young, I loved it and feel it gave them an excellent start. I can see that some people couldn't stand it so it is not for them.
Let us get over the idea that there is one way and that if it is my way I can't understand why it isn't the way for everyone!

What? Why not?

Both myself and DP don't like private schools because we don't feel they provide the best education (and we've both been to them, no jealousy here). So we won't be sending our kids to them.

Lotus I don't understand why you can't accept not everyone wants the same thing?

I don't think people generally argue that you should encourage your own children to lower their ambitions because half of wages must be less than the median. The point is more that you can't run a country on the assumption that everyone will be a well paid lawyer.

I think it can be a bit of a mistake to rely on threads on here

I don't know anyon in real life who was a sahm for any of the reasons lotus mentioned. I do know a fair few who went back to work with a song in their heart as they did not enjoy their time as a sahm

If you are on a thread which is complaining about lazy partners then there will be loads of sahp saying that they have to do everything and hate it

If you are on a thread about wohm/sahm then some people can get very defensive and start saying all sorts of things, which even the most ardent wohm/sahm looks at and goes

If you are on a thread about how great it is to be a sahp then there are loads of posts saying how great it is

All the surgeons would be out of work if there were no nurses, no cleaners, no catering staff, no laundry workers etc!

SAHM is a bit misleading - the joy of doing it was that we were not at home much!

Gosh a lot of assumptions about me. I have never said everyone wants the same thing. I do think a lot of women accept domestic toil because their mother did it or their religion requires it or it's the culture. I also think there is a huge economic difference between men and women because men lumber women with dull domestic stuff. We have a long way to go to get equality.

Nor have I said women can only be happy if they are self sufficient and work although they are certainly safer and can protect their children later if they do. In fact happiness is a topic which interests me and how you achieve the brain chemicals balance which causes it. I repeatedly write that for that you need healthy wholefoods, enough exercise, sunshine and lots of sleep. Plenty of people in all kinds circumstances on the planet achieve that.

As for my 5 children's choices of career I paid school fees precisely to ensure they have lots of choice. I have always said by all means run a bar in Costa Rica, live on a desert island, become a contemplative nun. I have never said there is one true path which is to copy mother. I am one of the last helicopter parents on the planet so the suggestion I am sitting here moulding the children to become mini mes is just wrong. That is not what I want for them at all. I do want them to make informed choices of career and I am not sure longer term the postman job gives you choice but I can understand that choice. You are free by 2.30 or 3 every day, you get to bed early, you're outside in the sun, you're moving - all the things which lead to happiness. Join Royal Mail and the route to happiness shall be yours....

LotusLight - you see, there you go again, swapping when confronted from rude comments about polishing steps, which are clearly designed to indicate that you think whatever a SAHP is doing, it's likely to be fairly unnecessary to society... to your comments about the importance of happiness...

I love the idea of you being one of the last helicopter parents on the planet, btw. You very seldom make typing errors, but when you do, they are funny!

Well about an hour ago I was up to my elbows in kitchen grease clearing below the hob (in the hope Curry's manage to deliver the new hob today - they failed on Friday..... and the old one has been in for 30 years so that's a lot of grease so far....) so I do a fair bit despite working full time (superwomen are like that - they can do and have it all... laughing as I type) I do a fair bit of cleaning.

If anyone objects to my saying women at home polish steps why? If cleanliness is close to Godliness and every working class woman used to scrub her front step every day what is wrong with that? Surely a housewife who is a slattern and does not keep house and just plays with the baby expecting her husband to do all the chores is just about the worst deal a man can end up with - wife earns no money and is bad at housework. What is the man then paying for? The sex I suppose but looking at mumsnet threads that seems to be a rare thing rather than a daily service.

I don't think concrete polishes up very well, LotusLight. It might do better with a bit of scrubbing. Still, maybe your middle class step is made of marble. I hope you never slip on it.