to think dual person 'full time' worker family households should never have become the norm?

[workingdilemma]

Was thinking about the other thread talking about tax credits etc.

Around 40 years ago, as a society we'd reached a point where one person working in a household was enough to support a young family.

Now we've ended up where it's pretty much required to have both working full time to be able to afford the same lifestyle - mainly due to the insane 'cost' of housing.

It would have been far better to have had both people in a couple working perhaps part time to allow engagement with the world of work, and also a healthier work/life balance.

Why did we end up like this? Was it all an orchestrated plan to keep the debt cycle going - after all, you can lend on two incomes now for a mortgage. Lovely jubbly for the debt pushers. Is that why the banks and governments encourage this?

I dunno, but I do yearn for a better way to deal with the problems we're having now then everyone demonising each other.

Rogue, I definitely agree that part time work should be more of an option for people who want it, but I do have an issue with this:

" My problem is with people who have more than enough disposable income, depriving other people of enough income by not working part-time. "

You can't shame people out of working full time even if they want to because they have "too much employment, they're greedy, they need to share their job and salary with somebody else!". I am not "depriving someone else of income" by having worked hard and earning a good income myself. That's not how it works. You can't create full employment by making everyone cut their hours so employment is "shared better". Also who decides what's "more than enough" anyway?

"I don't see how most jobs couldn't be part-time anyway."

Ok, let's say, my job. I work on a lot of projects that have tight deadlines. When I am working to a deadline, I am in charge of my bit of the project, I answer questions, I meet with colleagues, I send work for review and review other people's work, I know that project backwards and what's going on in it at any given time. There is no way there can be nobody working on my part of the project when I'm not there, so there'd need to be "another me". But the amount of time doing handover of ownership when I wave bye-bye after my two days or whatever (status, who's doing what, why certain decisions were made, what needs to be followed up, who's doing what, etc, plus time for "replacement me" to ramp up/catch up) would cut seriously into actual project time.

I also know from a few friends who do work part-time that they often find themselves basically doing nearly just as much work, but for less money, and that it has its own stresses and problems.

And yes plenty of jobs cannot be done part time. A surgeon cannot leave an operation mid way. I cannot just leave a court hearing. I can't leave an over night deal. I cannot clock off a conference call because it's gone on beyond 3 hours and nor do I want to.

Oh my word. A new level of rubbish.

Since when has part time equated to clock watching? It's about flexible working over a week.

Disclosure - I work part time.

There are days when I go in, and work way over my hours. Shock horror - I stay for the conference call.

Then there are days I have off. Occasionally, work might ask to swap them around. I'm usually able to do that. No problems.

The surgeon could work 3 days on, 4 days off. Or 3 days spread throughout the week.

I'm guessing there aren't that many operations that require 5 days of 24/7 work.

But assume we all want part time work. Many of us are happy with full time and we should not be criticised or find wanting because we want to work full time hours.

Also in plenty of jobs the more you do something the better you are at it from playing the violin to operating in an operating theatre so not surprisingly some full timers are better than part timers... never mind the massive hassle most of us have to cope with on a daily basis because Mavis in accounts is only in 2 days a week so everything gets held up for 5 days whilst she's home polishing her front door step.

Lotus that just sounds like you're bitter that some people work part time. I don't have a problem with people working full time, I have a problem with the expectation that it's the norm. If you want to work full time good for you but others shouldn't be forced to, or made to feel like they aren't as good as you (spends time polishing her doorstep?) because their choices are different to yours

never mind the massive hassle most of us have to cope with on a daily basis because Mavis in accounts is only in 2 days a week so everything gets held up for 5 days whilst she's home polishing her front door step.

Brilliant.

I always love your work.

Take on fewer projects! Nobody's indispensable. leedy

OP did not say that she thinks it's desirable for most households to have a housewife.

Why have house prices gone up? Supply and demand, mortgage 'problem'
buy-to-let landlords, billionaires buying properties in London, increased population, more single-parent households.....

Come on Lotus - give us that Jam today line next. It never ceases to crease me up.

In my family I am the first generation of women to have worked after marriage.
I do a creative job which actually fuels me and am better person for but would pain me to work at something I hated just for the money or in a stressful role.
I hope my children learn that careers doing what you love will make you happiest .

i love my job. I work really hard and I'm good at what I do. I've spent a lot of time building up the knowledge and the contacts and relationships which make me successful at what I do, and I started from scratch with zero connections.

The idea that someone should think that I should take a pay cut, drop my hours and give up what I've worked extremely hard to earn, just so someone else can get a go as well is absolutely shocking to me. If they want a go then they can work as hard as me and then they'll get promoted too.

Another point - if only one half of a partnership is working, that does put the family in quite a vulnerable position if anything goes wrong. When I was made redundant while DH was studying, I had no choice about which job I took, no time to job hunt, no breathing space and ended up working in a call centre which I hated.

When I left my job while DH was working, I took my time, looked for the right position, and got something I really enjoyed.

Not at all bitter. I'd rather practise law any day than be polishing that door step or changing 10 nappies a day or singing wheels on a bus for the umpteenth time. Also the more women (and men) who work part time the easier it is for me to succeed in business so bring it on. It makes the full timers rarer than hen's teeth.

The idea that women should be at home as the default was a policy devised after the war to get women out of the jobs they had been doing very capably during the war to allow the jobs to be returned to the men coming home from war !

Before that children were cared for by other women usually older in the family and once old enough they were expected to work themselves -usually from the age of 14.
My DF had to go out to work at 14 to help support the family- he handed over his wages to his mother as did his DF!

If that's how you feel lotus then what's the problem? You suit full time work and so you do it, others don't and they work part time. Suits everyone, no?

owl OP (and most other posters) are not suggesting that only one person in a dual person household should work.

The whole attitude seems to be "I don't want to work hard, so I want everyone else to stop working hard too because it shows me up."

Actually, the more I hear it, Polishing the door step is my new favourite Lotus-ism.

It's done the impossible, and surpassed the unsurpassable Jam Today.

Ah the attitude that if you're not a workaholic career minded individual you don't work hard.

Not at all. I'd just rather society was more about reaching your potential as an individual rather than the monotonous rat race

Oh I don't know - polishing the door step, it's free outdoor exercise and you can chat or listen to the radio or music while you do it.

"work hard" - you think only paid work is hard work?

Rogue what I don't get is if you work as say, a childminder, that's a respectable job. If you choose to stay home and look after your own kids that's somehow less respectable.

Yeah. Part time workers - scum of the earth. Workshy, unambitious, scum.

How dare we want to spend time on other pursuits, whilst working as hard as anyone else whilst at work, trading an amount of time we are comfortable with for a salary that we are (usually) comfortable with.

No I don't, I mean work hard AT work. What you do out of work isn't relevant to the point I'm making.

If you don't want to work hard in your paid employment then that is absolutely fine, but saying that people who do work hard (in paid employment) should go part time and work less hours is what I am objecting to.

I know! And if you 'choose' to look after an elderly parent instead of 'putting' them in care you're presumably a mug, or not fulfilling your potential, by putting their needs before your own . But it counts for nothing despite saving the chancellor a packet.

And if someone is working hard (in paid employment) for 12 hours a week and someone is working hard (in paid employment) for 35 hours a week, then the person working 35 hours a week is overall working harder (in paid employment) that the one who is working 12 hours a week overall. Then the one who works 45 hours a week (in paid employment) is working even harder still.

So for me, the one who works the hardest (in paid employment) should get the most benefit in terms of salary, opportunities and promotion (within their paid employment)

That was in agreement with Lashes

If you don't want to work hard in paid employment then that is absolutely not fine! In fact if you're not stretched to the limit by working full time and doing child-care you might be more productive when you are at your work.

What - noone is suggesting anyone should slacks off at their job anywhere on this thread???

And neither is anyone suggesting that people must work part time
You like working full time? Brill. Go for it.

The debate is whether moving towards the option of flexible employment for all (men and women) would be beneficial.