to think dual person 'full time' worker family households should never have become the norm?

[workingdilemma]

Was thinking about the other thread talking about tax credits etc.

Around 40 years ago, as a society we'd reached a point where one person working in a household was enough to support a young family.

Now we've ended up where it's pretty much required to have both working full time to be able to afford the same lifestyle - mainly due to the insane 'cost' of housing.

It would have been far better to have had both people in a couple working perhaps part time to allow engagement with the world of work, and also a healthier work/life balance.

Why did we end up like this? Was it all an orchestrated plan to keep the debt cycle going - after all, you can lend on two incomes now for a mortgage. Lovely jubbly for the debt pushers. Is that why the banks and governments encourage this?

I dunno, but I do yearn for a better way to deal with the problems we're having now then everyone demonising each other.

My mum stayed at home for 5 years in the 80's to look after me and my brother. She enjoyed it. She didn't have to get up early to catch a train, she wasn't commuting, she cooked meals from scratch, we ate well, ran the house, did the cleaning etc.

We lived in a 3 bed detached house with a garden. In a village. We had a car. We had a UK holiday. My dad was a car sales man. He earned enough to enable us to live like that.

When my brother and I went to school my mum returned to work. She gained her BA and went on to a great career. (Maybe managing a budget and running a household actually taught her a few skills that were transferable into the workplace?)

My mum returned to work because she wanted to. If she hadn't wanted to, she could have stayed at home. She had that option.

I agree that men holding all the power is a bad thing. And also that only a minority of women wanted to stay at home. My point is that it's OK to be a housewife. And it's OK to work. But doing both is hard.

From the relationships that I see, both women and men work full time.

And it's the women who do most of the stuff around the house. Maybe it's my limited social circle, but from previous threads I've seen on here, maybe not!!!

One problem I feel about the 2 full time working parents society in an increasing 24/7 world, it would be fine in a perfect world, in the real world however we have very young, very old, disabled, short term sickness (everyone suffers it at some point) and long term sickness can happen to anyone, basically people ALL need care at some point between cradle and grave. We have and continue to build a society with little to no support for this. How and who cares for those needing care, if we can't do this surely we are failing at something very basic in life

I'm sure there are still plenty of men around also nowadays, who expect the wife to do it all. But if you as a woman do not consider this a reasonable solution, I would not choose such a man as a partner. It rarely happens that a partner who was happy to do his fair share just flips one day, sits his arse on the sofa and refuses to lift a finger.

Hazle, agree with that, men who are like that usually are like that from the beginning.

Very interesting article in the Times this morning about the author of this book. Her message is that having a career and a family is not only completely possible but that women are much happier if they are able to do both.

She thinks that we're all being conditioned by the message that it's impossible/ exhausting/ damaging to our children to be both mother and careerwoman so we give up trying to do both before we've even started. If we want to do it and put our minds to overcoming the obstacles, it's perfectly possible.

I found myself agreeing with a lot of what she said. And it was a bit of a lightbulb moment. I've never enjoyed my life more than I do now - working full time in a challenging job and mum to two young children. But I feel constrained and uneasy from saying that because I feel as though I SHOULD be guilty or stressed. And I'm really not.

So I'm stepping up and embracing my choice now. My children are happy, my husband is happy and I'm happy. And I'm committed to making the most of my extremely fortunate life.

Not denying anybody's else's experience or struggles, or that the cost of living is punishing at the moment. But I don't agree with the OP.

If two incomes are required to buy an average house for an average family (I know this often is not enough !!!) what happens if a family becomes a single parent family, how do they afford a house or any standard of living. If one salary could support a house then the chance of moving on as a single parent family would be easier for people who needed to.

I'm sure it was a very interesting article in The Times, but I find nothing more bl*dy irritating than some patronising person telling women what makes them happy. She knows bgger all about all women, as all women are different - she's talking to a select audience of people who agree with her, or who want to agree with her and that's it. So I hope she isn't actually claiming that she knows that ALL women would be happy following her advice!

Or worse, that you aren't a "successful" woman unless you follow her advice!...

Tbf rabbitstew - she was reporting on the women she'd interviewed for the book who all said they were happy. She wanted to present a positive view of working motherhood to counter balance the message that it's hard work and exhausting. I happened to agree with it.

But she wasn't claiming that ALL women would be happy - just that we shouldn't assume it would be too difficult to try.

Re the article in the Times. I am in my 40s. When I was growing up the aspiration was to make money and then retire as young as possible to enjoy it. The aspiration for many now seems to be to go on making as much money as possible for as long as possible. This affects men and women and I don't see many discussions decoupling fulfilling activities from moneymaking.

It's a difficult one, and I have really had to unlearn a lot of preconceptions. My granny earned the same, if not more, than my grandad (her: nurse, him: miner) and my mum (teacher) has always earned more than my dad (proofreader/editor). In my family there's never been any question: both work, because we need the money. I'm ashamed to say I thought a woman could only be a SAHM if her husband was rich.

I know a few families where that's the case but equally I know a few where the woman is a SAHM because they can't afford childcare. I don't think having 2 working parents (albeit one who was home by 4pm) affected me negatively at all, but then I have nothing to compare it to.

Fair enough, Treats - it's a good message to say we shouldn't just assume it would be too difficult to try. I think most people who enjoy their careers are willing to try, mind you! The difficulty comes when the career is not enjoyable but the work still has to be done!

It's capitalism: get everyone to slave to line the pockets of the few/super rich.

How about you read the OP again, which is explicitly
Not about women giving up work
Not about one incomefamilies ,

but about both partners working flexibly to achieve a balance. Once again we've ended up mired in it being about feminism.

The society we live in today is completely different to the society it was 30-40 years ago. As previous posters have said, years ago people tended to settle in their home towns and every generation benefited from a large extended family network-to put your old folk in a nursing home was practically unheard of as were childminders for the children.For the first time ever women had access to reliable contraception and could limit the size of their families and about the same time girls were encouraged to get a good education/go on to further education just like boys always had been.When my parents and thousands more like them of their generation aspired to get on the property ladder they went without to save for the deposit and when they managed to eventually buy, they sparsely furnished it with either donated or secondhand furniture. Car ownership and holidays came many years later. Most people today want everything NOW. Even before people have their first child they are buying 4/5 bed houses,beautifully furnished and two cars on the drive and inevitably a lot of the women are having to wait until their late 30's-early 40's to start a family because they can't afford to do it earlier.All of our expectations have changed and with it society has changed too. Social mobility means many families are scattered countrywide-if not worldwide and so the important support network for both young and old is gone and I have immeasurable sympathy for folks that find themselves priced out of the housing market, be it buying or renting, in their home towns and country villages but we all have to' cut our cloth' as the saying goes.We can't have it all I'm afraid but we can all chase our tails trying to get it.