to think this government hasn't got a clue about education- why should all children be made to take MFL at GCSE?

[LuluJakey1]

What is it with the ill-thought out education ideas this government has? Why should every child take a GCSE in MFL? It is not something many children enjoy or feel has relevance to them.

Why should a school not be able to be outstanding if it does not make all students take a GCSE in MFL?

Languages can prove useful in surprising arenas, like the pharmaceutical environment one poster described. A good MFL degree is evidence of a very wide range of skills - good communication, thinking on your feet, close reading. Once you add the fact that most language graduates have spent time living and working or studying in a different culture and language, then you can add the fact that language graduates are often more mature and poised and able to engage in flexible thinking. At GCSE level languages offer evidence that you have acquired the rudiments of a set of skills. They open up your perspective, especially if you participate in the exchange programmes that so many schools run. Of course you won't have a good memory of French vocab after 10 years or so if you haven't done any since GCSE, but the fact of having done it in the first place will make it easier to pick it up again and/ or to do another language.

Sure if you get a GOOD grade in GCSE it can benefit you hugely, but a bad grade? Someone explain to me how a G in French is beneficial?

It's as beneficial/ detrimental as a G grade in any other subject.

What if that person had the choice of predicted F/G in MFL or a C/D in a BTEC. Should insisted upon, anyway? Will will benefit the pupil the most?

ps: and what if the pupil very much prefers the BTEC over the MFL? Does this not matter?

I would say it matters, yes. It would depend on their range of subjects, and there might be a way of them doing both. If not, do the BTEC. That's what I'd choose for my child in that case. But I'd still want him to continue with some kind of language learning, even if not for GCSE.

I think that must be hyperbole, Camel, or BTECs wouldn't be offered at all.

DS is happy with his BTEC & still fairly popular choice around here.

God knows what they'll be worth when the new gcses kick in.

But sally languages only open up opportunities to the extent that your salary is 2% above a person with similar skill minus the language component - given the amount of time you invest in a language 2% is hardly a convincing figure for improving your career prospects. By comtrast it's between 10-20% increas in salary for Russians and Turks learning English. I think learning about other languages and cultures is life enhancing but imo the career enhancing argument is weak. Is your opinion purely that or can can you direct us to a study showing the career benefits?

It is truly remarkable how Polish plumbers, builders etc can also manage to learn an MFL as well. Why are their UK counterparts thought to be unable to manage it?

Out of my circle of friends who I met in a Spanish class it is amazing how many of our children have studied MFL at A level and gone on to study degrees which included MFL.

It is all about parental attitudes and expectations.

You could make an argument for any subject being potentially useful later in life depending on what industry or circumstances you find yourself in. That argument doesn't convince me, personally, that the subject should be mandatory.

I disagree, it's all about how much money you can earn. Polish plumbers earn a pittance in poland but can earn masses in the UK.
They need to learn English to make a good living so they do, learning polish for a native english speaker is unlikely to be so profitable.

Why ted? Where's your evidence?

I've never seen a study for 2% and would be surprised it's so low. I saw a study some years ago saying that languages graduates as opposed to humanities graduates minus languages could expect 25% more in terms of salary. That was a Sunday Times student guide supplement. That seems rather high. Personally I'm not convinced by studies and statistics of this kind, as it's so easy to massage criteria. Added to which are the unexpected opportunities that languages can offer, that a number of posters have mentioned, but which might be hard to quantify in purely financial terms. But languages graduates have an extremely impressive set of skills and are highly employable. Added to this are the life skills which are of immeasurable benefit in my view.

Ahem, plumbing is mostly a BTEC subject.
Anyone remember in 90s when lots of British builders went to Germany because economy was so dire here? Bet most of them didn't speak any German before they went.

Have just seen your last post loaf. I couldn't disagree more about it all being about how much money you can earn. Why on earth would anyone become a nurse or a teacher, for example, if it were only about the money?

My Polish builder was in a specialist high maths stream at school too, but despite his obvious all round academic prowess it pays at the moment for him to be a builder here. My kids have no incentive to do building work in Poland.

MFL should be compulsory but only in primary, past that point it becomes difficult to teach a student who has never been exposed to it.

And to Sally 's point, I am sure a survey would show no salary uplift at all for my language skills in my job, but it is part of a broader picture and has certainly facilitated me being in the right place at the right time and being noticed by the right people when I was up for promotion. I can't say I wouldn't have got it without the language, but the circumstances meant I was viewed very favourably because of it.

Ted , the difficulty I have with that is that the same applies to other compulsory subjects too, for examples sciences, you can make an argument for them, but a vast proportion of people don't care about GCSE science, and never use nor refer to any of it again. If it's really about wider skills, then languages offer those in abundance too.

It's a fantastic, valuable life-skill to be able to speak another language! I come from a mixed British/Polish family and am fluent in both languages, DH comes from a mixed British/Thai family and is fluent in both languages. When the time comes for DD to start speaking, she will hopefully be multi-lingual. I find myself chattering away to her in Polish all the time, as well as in English...Sounds shallow, but it's also a great money maker!! Before DD was born, I used to make a decent amount of money as a private language tutor, teaching English to Polish migrants in the area. British people are usually very lazy when it comes to learning other languages...think about it, when you we go on holiday, most of us speak to waiting staff/bartenders etc in English rather than try to learn basic spanish/french/italian etc. I think it would be fantastic to hear British children speaking other languages...would surely broaden their horizons?

I don't think anyone would argue that bilingualism is fantastic and gives great opportunities emzii.

So Sally rather than going on studies and statistics you'd rather make decisions based on anecdotes? Btw personal unexpected opportunities are part of that 2%. I agree with you it's a remarkably low figure but in the absense of other objective information what do you go on?

As i mentioned earlier, dh was offered a high profile job in a French company who were also based in the UK, no one enquired about his mfl in the 4 interviews he took, even the French CEO interviewed him in English! My sister has worked all over the world for a Chinese company based in Hong Kong - English was the language required by everyone the world over. Will you like most people forget the anedotes that don't support your position?

I remember an MFL head of department telling me that the message from industry was there were insufficient people with language skills in the UK to take on top management roles. However my experience going in as a graduate was complete indifference to my language skills. (This was in an exporting industry.) Those at my level with languages were working in the overseas offices with English as their second language.