to think this government hasn't got a clue about education- why should all children be made to take MFL at GCSE?

[LuluJakey1]

What is it with the ill-thought out education ideas this government has? Why should every child take a GCSE in MFL? It is not something many children enjoy or feel has relevance to them.

Why should a school not be able to be outstanding if it does not make all students take a GCSE in MFL?

My dds studied Spanish periodically at primary but the secondary school only offers French. Like DH & I despite being academically competent enough to do well enough at A-levels etc. we have zero aptitude at foreign languages.

I learnt enough to pass my French at GCSE purely through rote learning - paragraphs off by heart etc. Served me absolutely no purpose what so ever and I detest that most schools make studying one at GCSE level compulsory.

I think MFL's are important. However, I think the current way of teaching/assessing them is shite.

DSyr10 talks about kids on his iMedia class who got 3/60 on the Mock GCSE. They put it down because they had to choose something, don't give a damn what they actually get.

I feel sorry for the teacher. I wonder how many would be like that in French if forced to be there.

Im torn... on the one hand I live abroad and teach ESL, and think it's important to have an idea of what it means to learn and try to speak another language, even if it won't be of practical use in your future. OTOH the MFL education I had at school was woeful, boring, taught me nothing of use, and it wasn't until later in life that languages started to mean anything to me or seem like something desirable to learn.

So I'm on the fence really.

MFL are generally left until secondary school, by which time children often don't see the need for them.

If they are given lessons in Primary, and not half-heartedly either, they'll be more receptive to learning MFL.

I can't speak another language, mostly down to hearing problems, but the only option years ago in my local schools was French, which I hated. Had I had the chance to have a go at German, I'd have grabbed it.

I'm now doing beginner's German by using Babbel, as DD is doing German at GCSE and contemplating A level German. She's also using my Babbel login to try Russian, and DS (aged 11) is contemplating having a go at Spanish, not currently an option at the secondary school.

I do think there should be more encouragement to try languages.

I have never forgotten the disappointment in my Mum's voice when she described how at secondary school in the 1950s she was denied a chance to learn French because she was in the "C" stream, solely on account of her maths. Her other subjects, especially English, had good marks, but at that time, the school streamed kids based on their overall abilities, and her poor maths dragged her down.

I agree mfl is important, I wish I could speak one competently. I think it's possibly the best skill you could have when looking for employment.

However, having worked in secondary chola for over 10 years there are many cases where a child can barely read and write ENglish to a good standard and I often think they should be pulled from lessons such as mfl to concentrate on the basics that they need. All children do not need to speak a foreign language, it's great if they can though.

Obviously there is the argument that they should have a good level of English by secondary school but there are a million and one reasons why that may not be the case, special educational needs being one of them

Never mind having to do a MFL - why the hell do that have to do RE?

i think languages are really hard to master unless you use them alot, like driving you need to do it and learn rather than just learn once a week.

there are other subjects I would like ds to master and french ain't one of them!

has anyone's child actually mastered mandarin?

No problem, ghosty.

I object because my DS with ASD could only speak English (his first language) from 5 or 6 yo, so French or other MFL would be a waste of his time. Luckily he is in Y10 so misses this requirement. His school have always allowed the DC with moderate SEN to drop MFL and spend that timetabled time on extra maths and English within the SEN dept. This is an inclusive comprehensive. I'm worried that they will now have to lose this extra time to get a very low grade GCSE in MFL. Not all DC are destined for sixth form or university and more vocational courses really suit some pupils.

This policy seems like a throwback to the 50s, but even then only a minority took O levels. Too many Tory politicians have spent very sheltered lives in private education or top sets. I truly believe they think everyone is capable of achieving C grades and above.

*Sorry, I meant allowed them to drop MFL from Y7 to spend extra time on maths and English.

I don't have a problem with children learning languages in general. I think it's a really good thing. However the logistics are sadly lacking and simply saying children should take a gcse in mfl isn't going to fix the problem.

It would be ideal for children to start learning a language in primary school and continue with it through to gcse. However the majority of primary teachers do not have a second language. Even if they do it isn't going to be all the same one. Often primary schools will offer the language which at least one member of staff knows something about which may or may not be what the local secondary school offers.

Primary schools have tried many different approaches to this and none have really seemed satisfactory.

Even at secondary, languages offered can change due to staff changes. There aren't enough staff to fill vacancies.

Even if we can all agree that children struggling with English should be exempt , it won't happen. They'll be forced into it.

A country can't become good at speaking languages through lessons at school. They became good because the whole culture (home, TV, news, cinema) etc. is drenched in another language.

a) The government announced yesterday that it wants every students at KS4 to take GCSE exams in Maths English, Science, Humaities and MFL.
b) They also announced that a school where students do not do this will not be able to gain the highest gradings (note plural) from OfSTED

Headteachers understand this to mean all children will have to study GCSEs in these subjects or it will be i possible for the school to achieve outstanding or possibly even good ratings.

It is a ridiculous idea. If students wish to study MFL, of course they should have the chance. But no students should be made to study MFL if they have no desire to or find another course more useful or appealing or appropriate.
The students at our school live in a deprived area south of Sunderland. Many have special needs. The majority of them hate MFL- they find it irrelevant to their lives and uninteresting. They do not enjoy speaking an MFL , have no support for it at home and don't go on holidays abroad other than to an English speakng resort in Spain or Tenerife where they eat English food in English bars. There are those who enjoy it and we encourage them to do it. We can't run MFL trips because no one wants to go or can afford to go- although we try every year.

However, they enjoy English, Maths, Humanities, Science. May do very well in GCSE Technology subjects, GCSE Art, PE , Performing Arts, ICT.

Our students go into apprenticeships or onto college courses at 16 or onto Post-18 courses such as Nursing, teaching, construction, sciences, English Lit, Humanities. Our local university does not offer a MFL degree any more.

Why should we. make 14 year olds study MFL?

And why should our school which gets fantastic exam results at GCSE not be able to be outstanding or possibly even good, unless we make all students take GCSE MFL?

The British approach and exposure to foreign languages is appalling and a lot of the posts here are only too good examples of this. Particularly painful are suggestions that a child being 'rubbish' at languages (despite most likely never having received any decent attempt at education in one) has anything to do with their parents being 'rubbish' at languages (again, despite them most likely never having received any decent attempt at education in one). What a country of bloody slackers and excuse-makers. I say this as a (pissed off) Brit.

My sister is an utter moron due to her parents' constant humouring of her and excuses. She never, ever learned that to be able to learn to do anything (particularly within Maths), she would need to actually read the bit of the textbook explaining the exercise. She would always dive in and try to do the homework set, despite having no idea what to do, demanding her mother or I did it for her, refused to even listen to an explanation of what it was about when she had already refused to read the explanation in the book herself... and my mother just made excuses and said that her father struggled with Maths and this was the explanation. No, you've never taught your lazy arse daughter the magic of learning the theory before attempting to demand other people solve the problem because you 'can't do it'.

I think one MFL should be the absolutely minimum for most students, tbh. Here in France all students, except a small minority who opt for a vocational course from Y10, have to study two MFL until the end of Y11, and all students who opt for a general academic course in sixth form college must continue with two languages until age 18. Many study three languages in sixth form - either a third MFL or Latin.

I loved languages at school and got As at GCSE, couldn't speak a word of it now. It usually needs constant maintenance and development.. All the language teachers I've met are fantastic speakers but they are obsessed with it, study constantly still. I think it should be optional.. School need more practical subjects instead of useless ones. (to most people)

Here in France all students, except a small minority who opt for a vocational course from Y10, have to study two MFL until the end of Y11

And that's fine if they have been studying those languages effectively from an early age. But in the UK primary education of MFL is at best hit or miss, at worst it's woeful.

Until we sort that out, it's unfair to force a child to take a gcse that they will struggle with, when they could take a subject they are more interested in.

My DS has a speech disorder (one of the issues caused by this are that he doesn't process the difference in vowel sounds) he's also dyslexic.

Too late for your boy but BSL is being introduced as a GCSE.

I have met people who can barely string two words together in English, haven't so much as a smattering of French ... but are absolutely shit hot when it comes to manually coded languages.

I agree wholeheartedly with LuluJakey1, and I am a long-standing secondary MFL teacher, in an equally deprived area.

The MFL GCSE is not fit for purpose. The way it is assessed is ridiculous and wide open to abuse. It is essentially a test of memory now, and not of skills or knowledge.

MFL requires much learning by rote, and seeing as most teenagers can't even recall their own mobile phone number, it is just too hard for them.

I don't think it should be compulsory at all, and I don't think a school's results should depend on it.
For these reasons, I am seeking to exit the teaching profession as my integrity and beliefs contradict what is happening in schools.

budgie well, mostly French kids haven't been studying them from an early age (primary provision is patchy) but languages are reasonably well taught at secondary and they are seen as an important skill in the job market.

It sounds to me like the UK is in a downward spiral with regards to MFL - increasingly few courses offered meaning that not enough students are taking languages at uni, and it's consequently hard to fill teaching posts. In turn this means that very few primary teachers will have basic language skills so it becomes impossible to teach any MFL to young children.

I think this is a worrying development tbh and may help to explain the growth in anti european feeling and isolationism in the UK.

Just for comparison in Denmark thet have just started teaching English in 1st class. So age 6. I'm pretty sure you have to take it until you leave school - so a minimum of 9 years, probably more.

I heard a very interesting interview on the radio a while back when it emerged that teens werent choosing languages for gcses. They said that in retrospect they should have waited to drop the compulsory gcse element until those that had had an earlier start in primary school came through.

It is not something many children enjoy or feel has relevance to them. I'm sure you could say that about every subject on the curriculum. Tough shit. Life is full of things you dont enjoy but have to do. Get over it.

Leccybill speaks the truth!

And most primary schools do not have MFL teachers at all. We have 6 feeder primary schools. 3 teach it by having a French cafe day each term in Y5 and 6. Two teach it as an after school class with a MFL tutor and hardly anyone goes. One has a teaher who has been trained for 4 years by us sending one of our MFL staff up there an afternoon a week to work with her. She will not learn the language and just wants worksheets to do and does French geography and stuff aout food.

Primary School teachers are rarely MFL specialists- don't know one here. We have no MFL advisor because the LA has no money.

In our local authority even the schools in leafy suburbs with the middle class aspirational parents have very low take up of MFL. Local Independant School, Sixth Form of 350. 4 students studying MFL. Local Further Ed college can not attrat anyone for A level courses- even though locally over 200 students a year leave schools at 16 with a decent GCSE in MFL.

Forcing students to take it will not resolve the problems MFL faces.

Well I'm expected to teach French at primary school, amongst all the other subjects. I got a "U" at o level (7years of lessons!) and still can't count to 20 or name the days of the week. I genuinely do my best but it does show why lots of children can have a poor start at languages.

why don't we just accept, and celebrate, the fact that we got lucky and that English is so widely spoken there really isn't much need to speak another language? :)

I'm sure that many kids would drop maths like a hot potato if they were allowed to, but of course they aren't - and rightly so.

Part of the problem I think is that young teenagers in the UK are given far too much choice, far too early - most other european nations have a common curriculum up to around age 15, and an obligation to continue studying core subjects such as MFL right up until school leaving age.