Is it BU to demand someone change religion before you'll marry them?

[Sansarya]

I've been thinking about this recently as its happened/is happening to two friends of mine.

Friend 1: going out with a Muslim guy for years, they got engaged and then he said that he wouldn't marry her unless she converted to Islam. She was a bit taken aback but agreed to it, even though in her words she thinks "it's a load of rubbish."

Friend 2: her boyfriend wants to get married in the Catholic Church and is insisting that she become a Catholic too as he won't marry someone who isn't, so she's taking lessons and receiving FHC and being confirmed.

However in both couples' cases they were living together before they were engaged, and the Catholic couple have two children. I would've thought that was a bit taboo in their religions too, so don't understand why these guys were willing to ignore that tenet of their faith but are demanding a conversion before marriage. Are they BU?

[HootyMcTooty]

If someone doesn't want to marry someone outside of their religion what the fuck are they doing having children with people who don't share their faith.

These two individuals sound completely controlling.

[DrElizabethPlimpton]

It is bizarre. This is why I would never marry anyone who was religious.

[ItsRainingInBaltimore]

If I lived with a man and had a child out of wedlock with him, and he started laying down the law about what should and should not happen with his children as required in his religion, i'd be telling him to fuck right off with his hypocrisy and nonsense, quite frankly.

[Fleecyleesy]

It's really hard for the person on the receiving end of the demand. Either they lose their partner or they convert. I can therefore see why converting might seem the lesser evil, at least in the short term.

As for the person requiring the conversion by their partner, they are coercing someone into their religion. Horrible and could turn abusive. Difficult situations coming with future kids.

The only circumstances where I think it's ok is when it's just for show to avoid upsetting older relatives/"shaming" the family or to facilitate the actual wedding - ie the couple explicitly agree this.

I have a friend who was dating a Muslim for 5 years. All the while, he kept her a secret from his family. Then quickly dumped her when his mum came up with a suitable Muslim wife. My friend was heartbroken and fucked up for years afterwards.

I hate religion but I do believe in God.

[ItsRainingInBaltimore]

I do think that a lot of people who convert (and let's face it, it's almost always women) do so for an easy life and with a sense of 'well I don't truly believe in God either way, so what difference does it make whose God I swear allegiance to?' are missing the wider and more worrying point….

[ItsRainingInBaltimore]

That man was weak and an idiot to give up the woman he truly loved, but all the while no-one stands up to these family elders whose opinions apparently matter more than your own personal happiness, the nonsense will perpetuate itself.

[Gabilan]

"It is only going to happen if the person concerned has no faith. if you don't beleive anything, then what does it matter which culture you conform to?"

I'd put that the other way round. I have no faith. There is a reason for this. I see no reason to have any faith and therefore am not going to believe in something omniscient and omnipotent for which there is no evidence. However, if I believed in a god, it's possible I could just switch to believing in another god, or just admit that since so many religions draw on the Pentateuch I could just pick any one of them.

It matters deeply to me that I don't believe in a load of blinking mumbo jumbo, and I'm not about to start. It's why I don't date anyone religious.

[TheMagnificientFour]

I'm wondering if there isn't a lot of pressure from the guy family in both of those cases.

I know that this can be the case for some muslims where they are happy to accept a relationship with a non muslim woman but when you talk about marriage, then there is no discussion possible.

I could see that with Catholic guy but seen that he already has 2 dcs before marriage that argument fall short! He sounds much more controlling.

My big issue about 'converting' is that
1- you might do that just to keep him happy. I would feel very hypocritical.
2- you, in effect, agree to the way things are done in that culture and that means accepting a lot of other things. Circumcision is one of them but it's how you actually bring up a dd, the role of the woman in the relationhsip etc...
3- you take the risk of 'separating yourself' from your own family which is utterly wrong too.

[WinterOfOurDiscountTents15]

It's not unreasonable to for someone to only want to marry within their own religion. It's unreasonable not to be upfront about it early on the relationship.

I would argue its unreasonable for someone to agree to convert to a religion when they don't actually want to join that religion. It's pretty weak.

Isn't everyone entitled to have important things to them in relationship? I don't see how "I only want to marry a fellow muslim" is any different to "I only want to marry someone who wants children/is not a Tory voter/ is sporty like me/ is a recycler".....

[ItsRainingInBaltimore]

I think that is a very common scenario actually Fleecy. Lots of men (not just Muslims, but mostly) from very patriarchal societies know that they are expected to marry some nice girl hand selected for them by their mothers and aunties and the wider social/family mafia and it rarely occurs to them to refuse. They just date outside of their their religion/culture in the meantime and play act at being liberal and free to choose, like it's some enjoyable support act until the main act comes on and they are then expected to do the right thing, and they do it without question. Perhaps with a slightly heavy heart, but they do it.

This happened to a friend of mine who fell head over heels with an Indian doctor, when she was a young nurse. She never really got over how he could love her so much, and yet just leave the minute Mummy called to say it was time. So spineless and so utterly pointless.

I think any young woman entering into a relationship with a man from a culture like that needs to go into it with a healthy dose of realism and cynicism, and take it for what it is, and take each day as it comes with no expectations. They are almost always going to get their hearts well and truly broken. And for the ones 'lucky' enough to get their man there will be massive compromises and adjustments to be made, the like of which they could never have anticipated.

And God help them if they go to their DH's home countru, have some children and then the relationship fails. God help them. In fact God won't help them - quite the opposite in fact. God will be the reason they will probably lose the right to live with their children, if their ex feels like pulling rank, spurred on my his family.

[ItsRainingInBaltimore]

There is nothing wrong with wanting that or expressing your expectations in advance at all Winter but surely if it's that important to you then you can see that you should only date fellow Muslims? Surely no-one genuinely devout wants a partner who is lying about their faith just as a box ticking exercise?

[Mousefinkle]

They're both hypocritical. We'll fuck you, live with you and even have children with you before marriage which is totally against our religion but we won't walk you down the aisle unless you convert to my religion that I follow to the word, of course .

I wouldn't convert to any religion for anyone and if they insisted I did then I'd find them controlling and wouldn't want to be with them anyway.

In the 1950s when my Grandparents married he was Jewish and she was Catholic, he had to convert to Catholicism to marry her and he did gladly because he believed in neither really- he just wanted to make her happy . That's kind of different, back then religion was EVERYTHING and they certainly didn't have sex before marriage, they followed their religious values practically to the word.

[Gabilan]

"Isn't everyone entitled to have important things to them in relationship? I don't see how "I only want to marry a fellow muslim" is any different to "I only want to marry someone who wants children/is not a Tory voter/ is sporty like me/ is a recycler"....."

What Baltimore said. It's fine to want those things. It's also a good idea to bring them up within the first couple of dates, rather than after the first couple of children.

[msrisotto]

My FIL converted religion to marry my MIL. I don't think he really believes at all, but he loves her and they both enjoy the social aspect of the local church so I think he goes along with it for those reasons.

[specialsubject]

sounds like the unreasonable thing to do is anything except run a mile from these men. Marriage is supposed to be a partnership of equals.

but it is too late, so it will be handed down to another generation.

[WinterOfOurDiscountTents15]

There is nothing wrong with wanting that or expressing your expectations in advance at all Winter but surely if it's that important to you then you can see that you should only date fellow Muslims?

Um yeah, thats exactly what I said!

[Pilgit]

Totally bat shit crazy. Any decent priest (and I mean decent which doesn't mean all) would refuse to countenance this and encourage the woman to make a choice from her heart without outside influence. As for the Muslim - I know a couple where one is a Catholic the other a Muslim. It was agreed that the children would be brought up catholic (I think the tossed a coin in the end). The Muslims family were okay with it because they would be brought up with faith worshipping god - maybe not in the way they do but in faith.

On a personal note anyone who demands change before marriage is not right for you. One should be accepted just as they are.

[fredfredgeorgejnr]

If a priest would refuse to accept the religion of his parishioners because of outside influence then he wouldn't have any, all religions rely on outside influence to get members.

A decent priest is not one who turns people away. (unless it was a really decent one and turned everyone away, but that would make them a decent person not a decent priest)

[Ragwort]

How do women get themselves into these positions, surely you know if you are dating/having sex/children with some who doesn't share your faith (or lack of faith) ? .

Are people really so blinded by love that they don't bother to check the basics first?

[SolidGoldBrass]

Yes, it would be different if a couple came to a mutual agreement to pay lip service to the superstitious crap for the sake of the elderly relatives who only come and visit once a year or whatever. Though I'd still advise the woman to tread carefully: quite a few men who don't believe in the ancestral woowoo bollocks can, after a while, find it quite convenient to be the big believer by way of exerting pressure on the woman to accept second-class status at home - he can call on all the traditional/cultural/my imaginary friend says so weaponry to throw his weight about.

[Sunsoo]

I would'nt bother with anyone who isn't an atheist anyway. I'm too old for any religious shit.

[MidniteScribbler]

It's not always men expecting the women to convert for them. And it's not necessarily about control. Surely it's up to a couple to be able to decide what is important in their relationships? A close male friend of mine converted to Islam for his (now) wife. She's hardly what you would expect from a stereotypical Muslim - fake boobs, string bikini at the beach, never wears a head covering, but it was important to her, and he had no strong feelings either way.

[Theycallmemellowjello]

Not unreasonable to ask or have it as a condition. Unreasonable not to mention it as soon as relationship starts getting serious.

[contractor6]

You don't have to convert to.marry a catholic, I wouldn't even ask dh to convert or even marry in a church, as not his choice. I do want any children though to be bought up with a good understanding of my faith.

[Oliversmumsarmy]

Can I ask if both get divorced can the children and your friends leave the religion or are they classified as that religion for life and will it then govern who they or their children marry in the future and what religion your friends grandchildren are then brought up in?