To think that a 23k benefits cap will drive some families in the SE

[Minifingers9]

... Into destitution?

I live in a pretty unappealing and comparatively cheap part of greater London but you can't get a 3 bedroom rental for under £1400 a month.
If we lost our jobs we wouldn't be able to live on 23k a year as a family of 5. Not when 15k of it was going on rent.
Why don't they have regional benefit caps?

TT - maybe you are much more intelligent than my friend. Maybe you are more resilient. Who knows.

My friend's own mother had severe depression and her home was torn apart when she herself was very young by the criminality and abusive behaviour of an older sibling. When my friend was 15 she got pregnant to a manipulative and charismatic man ten years her senior. She never completed her education and now has mental health problems herself.

Comparing yourself to someone else and saying 'I did it so why can't they' only works if you assume that we are all blessed with the same intelligence and drive and self awareness. You must know that it's not fair or reasonable to assume this.

The bottom line is that prior to the existence of the welfare state large numbers of children from irresponsible/illiterate/alcohol addicted/inadequate/criminal families simply died in childhood or grew up suffering the physical, educational and social consequences of extreme poverty. Some escaped the poverty trap, but most didn't.

The government wants to reduce dependant and inadequate families to destitution to force them into work. They believe that everyone is like them: masters of their own fate, and has the tools to become economically productive and fully self-supporting.
I believe that there are individuals in the UK who simply can't be forced into productive behaviours, regardless of the size of the stick. History proves that some of the poor and feckless and inadequate will continue to have families they can't support regardless of what the state does. The only way to get these families out of poverty is through intensive social and educational investment - to break the cycle of deprivation and dependency.

"You shouldn't be homeless, hungry, or go without healthcare as a result of being widowed"

But the benefits cap is resulting in famines being made homeless.

It will also result in children going hungry and not having adequate heating or clothing.

This will happen to families I know who have 3+ children and who live in private lets anywhere in the SE.

They will not be able to pay their rent. The council will not be able to rehouse them as there simply arent enough affordable family homes in the SE to move them them to.

The only option will be to take all of their children out of school and move them to cheaper housing well out of the region (where they will have no famy or social support networks) to areas of (mostly) high unemployment.

There will always be some people who will make appaling choices and continue to hav echildren with the cap.

But many will not. They will be faced with the choice of living in very reduced circumstances or working . Many will choose not to hav e5/6/7 kids.

Those that do continue along a feckless path will be supported but teh idea is to encourage most not to start off along it!

I think there are a very VERY small number of families where the problems are so intractable that no amount of 'stick' will get them to lead productive lives. Most people are probably somewhere in the middle. And qualities such as self awareness, resilience etc aren't just something you're 'lucky' to be born with or not... The choices people make and the way they live their life can be a hugely influential factor in shaping these attributes. Intelligence... Well theres much debate over whether this is a 'fixed' thing or more fluid. I would come down on the side of it being to a large degree determined by gene pool, so yes, you can say that's luck of the draw, BUT I wouldn't say high intelligence has to play a massive role in leading a productive life. I know plenty of people with very functional, loving families and decent jobs who aren't particularly academically intelligent, but who have nurtured all the other qualities which are arguably more important in society anyway

I have to say there were areas of my city which were heavily benefit dependent. In the last five years this seems to have decreased massively. It simply isn't the attractive option any more.

TTWK, don't worry, I don't live my relatively comfortable life on benefits and I can afford to fund myself and my children without the widowed parents allowance that was practically thrown at me.

But it certainly helps, and in not so affluent that I was going to turn it down, especially as it's only calculated on the NI contributions that my DH made towards the state pension that he'll never receive. I'm quite comfortable with the fact that both my DH and I paid a lot in and I'm now taking a little back in a taxable benefit for a few years.

Minifngers- I can see where you're coming from, I really can. I just think that while on the one hand it's important not to assume that people like your friend are as clever, self aware etc, it's equally important not to assume that they ARENT. Otherwise we go down the road of patronising them, and assuming that any problems in their life are a result of some accident of birth, not being clever enough etc

I'm sure we all know people from the same family with pretty near identical upbringings, where some have built successful lives yet siblings haven't. I can certainly think of siblings where this is the case- and it's not necessarily the most intelligent ones who have the most productive lives. I can think off the top of my head of several families I've taught where siblings have made very different life choices despite being raised in the same family, so a pretty 'equal' upbringing

when i was a child i went to a school for children with learning difficulties. i know i have dyselxia. but thats all i know. at the school children did not do GCSE went to school until 16 and left with nothing. i dont know what other sort of learning difficulties i have i have never been told. i just know im not avearge/standard. I was bought up in a family that drank and there were lots of aguing. there was also abuse. it was only when i was about 16/17 that things got better. so now im not sure if the learning difficulties were due to the up bringing i had or weather i may have still had the same problems education wise anyway. either way i can only ever see myself in min paid jobs.

You may like to consider TTWK that while you were a child living in poverty and working hard at school. The likelihood is MY taxes were funding YOU. And yet you are obnoxious and awful enough to ask ME if I saved during the times I earned well. Yes I did (as I said further back...in case you missed it) but I still NEED to claim benefits at this moment in time. Disability happens...it cannot be planned for in advance. Once the savings run out you have to sell the house...unless you have the luxury of enough money to pay carers so you can continue he working.....a clue...most people cannot afford to fund this.

Like you I came from poverty (in my case during the 60s and 70s) it IS a powerful motivator,I gained lots of qualifications, I had the mortgage, I was doing very well until one or two events occurred, Events which were beyond my control....it happens,

Be aware that YOU are not immune from catastrophic changes either and try to learn a little humility and empathy for others. Your posts in this thread have been sadly lacking in both.

You have a good point about the social perspective, but a balance has to be found. From a social perspective, it's not good to continue to fund large unemployed families to have a comfortable lifestyle in an area of their choosing either.

When the cap is reduced to 23K, unemployed families with 2 or 3 children will also be unable to afford housing.

Yes they will, it just might not be in their chosen area. Which is fair enough if they don't pay anything towards their housing themselves.

You may like to consider TTWK that while you were a child living in poverty and working hard at school. The likelihood is MY taxes were funding YOU.

This sentiment has appeared in this thread several times. It's a perverse interpretation of "subsidy" or "funding".

Every child gets an education, every child gets healthcare. Disadvantaged kids get FSM, and thank god for that. This is the normal order of things. It's more like a chain mail than a subsidy.

On the other hand, some people use the welfare system. It's here to save people from falling through the cracks when bad, unforeseen things happen.

Comparing the latter to the former doesn't hold water. It's like trying to get your homeowners insurance to pay for a new kitchen because the old one is worn out. It just doesn't work that way.

Interesting that since the benefit cap came in, there has been a marked reduction in the birth rate; www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28330429

I'll repeat - if a family with three kids who don't work - so no travel costs, lunches, suits etc - can't live on £29 000 a year then either they are living way beyond their means oor they are truly and utterly shit with money.

And how do those of you who are grizzling about destitution on £29 K a year explain yourselves to the - literally - millions of people getting by just fine on far less?

What's fair about the richest region in the country forcing out its poorest residents? Didn't some SE housing association point out that under the new cap, all of its 3 bed properties will be unaffordable to unemployed families, and in a few years all of its 2 bedroom properties will be unaffordable.

What's fair is that there are plenty of oeople who do work and who even earn a decent wage that can't afford to live in any area they choose, so there's no reason why it should be an option for people who don't work.

The people being affected by this do have the option of getting a job if they want to. If like the OPs friend, they're unemployable, then they simply don't need to be in a particular area, no matter what their reasons are for wanting it.

I appreciate that but TTWK has been very hard lined on this thread. So in turn will I be.

I am just pointing out that we all need to take from the system at one time or another....when we do so we take from taxes being paid in by others. It doesn't matter if that's because we are children in a state school or Carers or pensioners etc.

I don't agree with anyone just taking for the sake of it if they can work and do their bit. It does nobody any good to sit at home when they could be working, supporting themselves and having a life. I clung on to my job for far longer than I should have done because it gave me an outside life, independence and adult conversation. I resent absolutely somebody coming along and questioning me about how I might or might not have prepared for something which I could not have predicted....a disability in my child.

So I consider it no issue to remind her that she has benefitted from ME too in the last 30 years, just as I benefitted as a child from those of my parents generation and beyond. I never expected to need benefits but sadly my crystal ball was faulty. TTWK and others need to realise that theirs might be as well.

Interestingly I never once considered where my taxes went while I was working, I loved my job and I loved my life too much to feel envious of people with less than me. But then I also had something which some on this thread seem to lack.....it's called compassion, some of you should try it...it's nice.

The birth rate has been falling for a long time...nowt to do with the benefits cap. One of the big issues over the past twenty years has been thee rise in the aging population coupled by a falling birth rate.

And how do those of you who are grizzling about destitution on £29 K a year explain yourselves to the - literally - millions of people getting by just fine on far less?

Would we be comparing like for like families in the same country? Or single people to families in the same country? Or like for like families in different countries?

There are any number of explanations why some people get along nicely on a household income of less than £23k, while others would struggle on that amount. You need to be more specific.

I dunno Eatup, I did just fine on £29k a year in work, can't believe anyone couldn't. Unless loads is going on housing costs...it seems an excessive amount. Does a family with three kids reach the benefit cap anyway? Or is it only in certain areas.

vitaminK, take a look at some of the research about the falling birth rate and the rising aging population.....it goes back years, like I said previously we were talking about it in the 90s.

Right...hiding this thread now. Getting stressed and angry does nobody any good.

I am on benefits while caring for a disabled child. If that bothers you...deal with it.

Yes I had savings but they don't go far when the disability is a one and you end up raising that child alone.

One day I will go back to work, it might be in a year or it might be in five years. In the meantime I will accept the situation and continue keeping up to date in my field.

I support the benefits cap....but I'd like to see it adjusted for regional costs.

I support work for those who can and I support benefits for those who can't.

" Didn't some SE housing association point out that under the new cap, all of its 3 bed properties will be unaffordable to unemployed families, and in a few years all of its 2 bedroom properties will be unaffordable."

Well that'll be the HAs problem to sort then. Social housing rents are supposed to be affordable. I can't take them seriously on any front if they're claiming someone on what equates to a salary of £29,000 won't be able to afford to rent a two-bed flat from them in a few years.

I am just pointing out that we all need to take from the system at one time or another....when we do so we take from taxes being paid in by others. It doesn't matter if that's because we are children in a state school or Carers or pensioners etc.

Grateful I don't want to antagonise you because you seem like a compassionate person who's fallen upon some very difficult times. The last I would want is to see people in circumstances like yours obliged to display gratitude for what you get. You don't need to be grateful, its a business transaction - we all pay in. This is what the state is here for.