To think EU residents living in the UK should have a say?

[TheColdDoesBotherMeAnyway]

People like my dh, who has lived here for 15 years and pays into the UK economy, are not going to be given the chance to vote in the upcoming referendum. There are 1.5 million EU citizens living in this country, contributing to our economy, who are not going to get a say in their own future. Aibu to think that this is grossly unfair?

(There is a petition on change.org but I don't think I'm allowed to link to it on here?)

[Badgerwife]

YABU and I say this as an EU citizen who has lived in the UK for 16 years, pays taxes, owns a house and has 2 children with my British DH.

I understand why you would think it fairer for us to be able to vote but at the end of the day, that's what citizenship is for.

From an identity point of view, I still feel fairly French (well, actually, I feel 'international', but I stand out as 'a bit French' in the UK and 'quite a lot English' when I'm in France ), It would pain me a bit to renounce the French part of my identity but I would like to be able to vote here, especially as I have no plans to go back to France, my life is 100% here.

Ideally I would like to become a British citizen, it makes total sense but I just can't afford the huge fee plus travel to London when we can barely make ends meet from one month to the next. But it is gutting in times of elections.

[EdgarAllenPoe]

My mum is an EU immigrant and has lived here for 35+ years. She won't get to vote in the referendum (she can't vote in general elections either). But she's had every chance to apply for British citizenship, but has chosen not to, so it's on her. Her choice. She's never wanted citizenship, so not being allowed to participate in certain aspects of government is the price she accepts she has to pay.

We have to draw the line somewhere. If you said, those who have lived here for xx number of years can vote, then the people who'd been here one week less would complain.

[LurkingHusband]

Quite a lot of people feel that British law is being made in Brussells, that EU rights trump British rights, that non-British EU citizens in the UK get double the advantages so allowing a vote would be playing right into the hands of the "Out" campaign.

But quite a loot of people are also quite thick.

[knittingdad]

I'm finding this a bit confusing. How do I find out if I can vote? I'm Irish but live in UK, married to a British husband. Voted in the General Electiion so am on the electoral roll

Hello, you will be eligible to vote in the EU referendum. I'm not entirely certain on the history of this, but I think there is a reciprocal arrangement between Ireland and the UK that allows residents of each other's countries to vote in each other's general elections and that this was as a result of the Treaty that established Ireland as an independent country to the UK.

Regardless of the history, the franchise for the EU referendum will be the same as for the general election (which you voted in) plus members of the House of Lords (who don't get to vote for the Commons as they are members of the other place) and Commonwealth citizens resident in Gibraltar who are eligible to vote in the EU Parliament elections.

[MissMooMoo]

im finding the becoming a citizen posts a bit strange.
taking 3 days annual leave?! traveling to london? (for what?)

I naturalized only 2 months ago, it was straight forward and yes I took a day off work for the ceremony but that was it.

I had the right to vote anyways as a commonwealth citizen but probably would have not as I don't think they should have a say in the upcoming election, nor should other EU citizens.

[WidowWadman]

MissMoo - I had to take 1 day off for my Life in the UK test, which I could only sit in a town 30 miles from where I live, another to take my language test, again 30 miles away (unfortunately a professional qualification for which I had to sit 15 three hour exams was not sufficient proof of my language skills), and the third was to go to my ceremony. Oh, and one afternoon to go to the nationality checking service (70 quid extra) as I didn't feel comfortable with sending in all of my identity documents by post to the home office where it'd be kept for an unpredictable length of time.

[GoodbyeToAllOfThat]

Quite a lot of people feel that British law is being made in Brussells, that EU rights trump British rights, that non-British EU citizens in the UK get double the advantages so allowing a vote would be playing right into the hands of the "Out" campaign.

But quite a loot of people are also quite thick.

Yes. All euroskeptics are thick, it's true.

[PennyJennyPie]

YANBU.

In my opinion, the OP's husband (and me) has contributed as much to the UK as a society as any YABU poster on this thread. The only difference between us and you is that we were born in geographically different locations.

How many of you YABU'ers would pay 1000£ to be able to vote in this election?

And to assume that any EU national would just vote for what is good for them - this is my home. Why would I not vote for what I think is best for my home?

I would happily give up my right to vote in my home country to vote in the UK.

[IKnowIAmButWhatAreYou]

How many of you YABU'ers would pay 1000£ to be able to vote in this election?

If it was as big a deal to me as it appears to be to you - then yes, I would. It'd mean no holiday abroad this year, but you could then camp in the glorious UK!!

If I seriously felt I was contributing and that I wanted to be eligible to have my say, then I'd go for citizenship.

[Legionofboom]

I am a British citizen who lives in another EU country. I can't vote here (except in European elections) which is fair enough.

I will get a vote in the UK referendum (if I don't renounce my citizenship before then) because I have not lived outside the UK for more than 15 years.

I don't fully understand the logic that a British citizen is considered to no longer be entitled to a vote after 15 years while a non-British citizen who has been resident in the UK for 15 years is not entitled to vote.

Surely if there is to be a 15 year rule for citizens then it should equally apply to non-citizens.

[AMaleOfGreatMaleness]

YABU.

Very obviously so.

[knittingdad]

@Legionofboom - The government don't understand that logic, either, so they have decided to change the law so that British citizens who have moved abroad will keep their right to vote in the UK for life.

[LurkingHusband]

Quite a lot of people feel that British law is being made in Brussells, that EU rights trump British rights, that non-British EU citizens in the UK get double the advantages so allowing a vote would be playing right into the hands of the "Out" campaign.

But quite a lot of people are also quite thick.

Yes. All euroskeptics are thick, it's true.



Not me that used the word "all" ...

Despite being in the "yes" camp myself, I have no problem with Eurosceptics who articulate sensible arguments. Personally I am much less pro-EU. However if the price of being "in Europe" is also being in the EU (a very interesting proposition that gets very little measured consideration) it's a price I would consider worth it. But I totally accept there are others who may not.

That's the 1% of intelligent debate covered.

The rest is mainly people parroting what they've heard from "a bloke", with zero input from their brain cells. These are the sort of people who think pulling out of the EU means an instant end to human rights (it doesn't. The UKs acceptance of the ECHR goes back to 1953. 20 years before we joined the EEC). Doubtless these are the same people who will trot out something -wrong- about straight bananas and metrication.

There's an old saying about fighting with pigs ... the thrust being that it's inadvisable as (a) you both get dirty and (b) the pig likes it. There's also a more up to date saying about arguing with idiots (a) you both end up discussing things which aren't true and (b) the idiot can always play the "Daily Mail says so" joker. Which as any fule nos is an antidote to actual facts.

At the time of the Maastrict treaty, I got chatting to a chap in his 70s. The radio reported the debate, and I casually mentioned something to the effect that the older generation were far less comfortable with the EC (as 'twas) than the youngsters. He then explained that he was fed up to the back teeth with the Tories feeling they had a monopoly on older folks opinions, and that he had voted Yes in '75 and would vote Yes again if ever asked. When I asked him why, he explained that he was made a PoW at Dunkirk, and spent 6 years in PoW camps, ending up in Poland. When the Nazis fell, he was hurriedly evacuated (marched over a thousand miles) and passed through Germany, Belgium and France, and lost count of the flattened towns and villages, and sheer human misery of innocents. As he said to me then, "if the EC is the price to pay to never see that again, then it's peace bought cheaply".

Any student of history will know that compared to any time in the past millennia, 1945-2015 has been one of the most peaceful in Europe's lifetime. You'd probably have to go back to the glory days of Rome to find an equivalent 70 year spell.

The world is settling into geo-political power blocs. We need to be in one.

[Mistigri]

YANBU

I think there are two logical criteria for deciding eligibility for a referendum of this sort.

Either the Scottish referendum criteria - where eligibility was based on residence - or the citizenship route, where every British citizen gets a say.

The government has chosen neither - EU citizens in the UK won't get a vote, but nor will many British citizens living abroad. To me that smacks of unnecessary concessions to the eurosceptics. Especially as giving the franchise to ALL British citizens abroad was in the manifesto!

[OrangeVase]

WidowWadman - my apologies I have just checked the HB application form and you do have to declare property owned abroad - I was wrong.

I know that my acquaintance did not include hers - nor did many of her friends - but I realise now that that was down to them not policy. However I think, from basic research that I have done, owning a house in the UK would diqualify you from HB but owning a flat in Poland would not.

LurkingHusband - dismissing huge numbers of people as "thick" is exactly the sort of comment that will push people to vote OUT.

Whilst there are undoubted benefits to EU membership there are also significant disadvantages and those disadvantages often hit the people whom you dismiss as thick because those particular problems of EU membership don't affect you.

I will probably vote to stay IN but I do not dismiss or ridicule those who vote otherwise.

It is true that EU law trumps UK law - that is the point of it. UK law has been slowly reformed in order to be compatible.

There are many landmark cases - one of which was huge as it challenged the HoLords was Factortame in which the ECJ held that "A national law should be set aside where it prevents the granting of interim relief in a dispute governed by EC law. [1990] E.C.R. 1-2433"

[HayFeverHell]

The fee to become a British Citizen is £1005. Plus £50 to take the test.

It's not small, but I think it's small enough that most people can't realistically claim poverty.

We had to scale back our summer holiday for me to do it. IMHO worth it, and much more important.

[Legionofboom]

HayFeverHell That is a huge amount of money to some people. Not everyone can afford a summer holiday to scale back on.

[Laquitar]

Orange
where did you read that bullshit, in daily mail?
You CAN NOT claim housing benefit if you own a house in EU!!

[HayFeverHell]

Legion, yes I agree.

But my thinking is that most non-British EU citizens living in the UK are here working. (If you reckon they are skint and here to live off benefits, that's a whole other "argy-bargy!") And they are choosing to work here because the money is good. I presume they don't come here to be poor, but to get by. A thousand pounds is a lot, but it is the cost of voting and something that professionals can afford.

[MissMooMoo]

apologies window, I did my tests on a Saturday, thought most areas this was possible. I didn't pay for the checking service (you can request documents back once the HO has them for a certain amount of days without withdrawal of application.)
my application only took a few weeks from posting it off until ceremony.

[SoupDragon]

I m surprised that anyone who is not committed enough to become a British Citizen feels they should have a say in how the country is run.

[Laquitar]

Orange
sorry i havent read your apology to the other poster when i posted earlier.

Hayfever
you dont have to be on benefits to be skint. Right now many working people are skint.
Also not everybody is here because of the 'very good money' (ha!). Most posters in this thread for example are married to British citizens and thats what keeps them here.

[IKnowIAmButWhatAreYou]

Most posters in this thread for example are married to British citizens and thats what keeps them here.

Still not a convincing argument for letting them decide national policy!!

I m surprised that anyone who is not committed enough to become a British Citizen feels they should have a say in how the country is run.

Totally agree

[Laquitar]

It wasnt argument for letting them decide.

It was argument that not every EU citizen is here for the money!

[HayFeverHell]

I appreciate that not every EU citizen here is "high rolling," I just think that even people on middle incomes can afford citizenship, if they value it. If they prefer to spend their money on something else, then fine. But don't whine.