To think EU residents living in the UK should have a say?

[TheColdDoesBotherMeAnyway]

People like my dh, who has lived here for 15 years and pays into the UK economy, are not going to be given the chance to vote in the upcoming referendum. There are 1.5 million EU citizens living in this country, contributing to our economy, who are not going to get a say in their own future. Aibu to think that this is grossly unfair?

(There is a petition on change.org but I don't think I'm allowed to link to it on here?)

[GoodbyeToAllOfThat]

Of course it is normal to "put down ties". I was pointing out that a lot of people come to the UK for work, rather than a British spouse - so it's a financial choice rather than a familial one.

I'm a naturalised UK citizen, by the way.

[WidowWadman]

Goodbye - even if the original motivation to move was a job, if you stay for years in the same place it's normal to put down roots.

I find it surprising how easy some people (who mostly don't have the experience themselves) think it is to emigrate/move on.

[SuiGeneris]

What is so wrong with being an immigrant who has come to the UK to work?

I have lived and worked in the UK for over 15 years. Paid tax and have had no representation and no say in the government of the country. Why is that less good than being married to a UK national ( which, incidentally, I have also done)?

On the EU, it would be nice if for once UK politicians and civil servants acknowledged quite how much influence they wield. Many a "European" rule has been drafted in Westminster...

[JassyRadlett]

Legally the UK can't start doing drastic rule changes about who can vote compared to what they have recently done, people should have been moaning for last 50 yrs about Commonwealth privileges being irrational not just at this moment when it personally affects them.

I've been moaning about it for the last decade, and the current system is advantageous to me.

It's a rare cause I have in common with MigrationWatch (who've campaigned on the issue in the past). Successive governments have also ignored the findings of Lord Goldsmith's review of the issue - that there should be a link between citizenship and voting rights.

Some of the voting unfairness could be dealt with, eg by passing and implementing the Votes for Life Bill before the referendum. Changes to the franchise require primary legislation.

It does feel absurd that citizens of 3 EU countries will be able to vote in the referendum based on history, but the others will not.

[lljkk]

I don't see how a No Referendum will mean chucking out en masse the non-Brits. Those who have been here 5 yrs or so will be eligible to apply for IDR, for instance.

Why bother to get nationalised...

For a start, the hypothetical EU national would be secure in their choice to continue living in Britain.

If I go missing or get in trouble with another country, it's nice that UK will be interested in my plight & be consul/embassy I can contact. Yes I have another nationality, but even better to have 2 interested govts.

As a British national I have a different/better relationship with commonwealth countries (potentially better visa requirements and so on) than as my original nationality.

If Britain Does stay in EU, being a Brit national enables work elsewhere in EU (in case your other nationality leaves EU, not unthinkable for some).

There's an aspect of my job that means I was a stronger candidate for having been naturalised.

==========

Legally the UK can't start doing drastic rule changes about who can vote compared to what they have recently done, people should have been moaning for last 50 yrs about Commonwealth privileges being irrational not just at this moment when it personally affects them.

I shall continue to call myself an immigrant not an expat.

[JustAPawn]

Can I just ask, apart from being able to vote, what other advantages/benefits does British citizenship has to a EU national?

[JassyRadlett]

So, you don't think the UK is wrong in disallowing EU residents from voting. I wouldn't have gotten that impression from your post.

Why?

I don't think it's automatically wrong. I think what's wrong is an illogical and unfair system of voting rules. Restricting the franchise to citizens makes sense. Allowing a residency test makes sense.

What doesn't make sense is a vote-worthy foreigners and non-vote-worthy foreigners system.

What really doesn't make sense is preventing British citizens from voting if they've been out of the country fof 15 years, but not having equivalent franchise for those resident here for the same duration.

I think it's particularly shitty that having acknowledged the unfairness and lack of logic in this area before the election, and confirmed that they will change it, they've kicked doing it until after the referendum to avoid a fight within the party and a potentially embarrassing Commons rebellion.

I think 'expat' is an awful term as it's often used to describe what peoe see as 'good' immigrants while 'immigrant' is used for the less desirable ones, with particular racial overtones. There have been interesting studies on this and an interesting MN discussion recently. I'm not suggesting that was your intent - but it's unfortunately how the word is predominantly used.

[GoodbyeToAllOfThat]

If you think "expat" is an awful term and prefer "immigrant", then by all means let's use "immigrant".

But what about all the immigrants who have come here for jobs rather than marriage? Surely they take the measure of it all, rather than "putting down ties"?

So, you don't think the UK is wrong in disallowing EU residents from voting. I wouldn't have gotten that impression from your post.

[popmimiboo]

Why 15 years though? Am I any less British than I was last year?
I return to the UK for at least a month a year, have never spent xmas in France, speak English at home and work, watch English TV, read British newspapers...

And don't have the right to vote in France.

Thus, have no right to vote.

How is this, in any way fair or logical?

[JassyRadlett]

Let expats shop around for the most desirable country, yes?

That's such an odd and insular statement, ignoring the fact that many immigrants (I think expats is an awful term, I am happy to own my immigrant status) remain here not simply because we've 'shopped around' but because we have put down ties here and, in a lot of cases on this thread, married a local.

[JassyRadlett]

Which is a reasonable response, if I'd been saying it's a problem or the UK's fault. If you read my original post on the issue I was pointing out one of the reasons that some EU nationals might be nervous about acquiring UK citizenship to those saying 'if they want to vote they should just pay the £1K!'. Because it isn't as simple as that for some people.

I do however blame the UK for lack of logic in its franchise policy, as I would with any policy that lacked a logical basis. It is, as you say, its sovereign right. However it doesn't make it immune from criticism that it is bad policy.

[Toadinthehole]

We all know the UK has "special" rules for the Commonwealth, because of the empire or out of guilt from the empire, something to do with the empire.

Or perhaps the average Commonwealth country has stronger historic and cultural ties with Britain than Britain does with the EU.

[GoodbyeToAllOfThat]

It's not a question of interpretation, politics or positioning. It is factually inaccurate to state that dual citizenship is possible for all EU residents of the UK.

As I said, the complaint should rest with the country not allowing dual citizenship - not the UK. Even the punitive US regime allows it.

As for the lack of logic in the Commonwealth vs the EU - the "lack of consistency" is for the UK to indulge in as they see fit, being a sovereign nation and all that. Let expats shop around for the most desirable country, yes?

This aside, there is undoubtably a measure of guilt underlying the Commonwealth policies, as well there should be.

[JassyRadlett]

UK nationals living elsewhere in the EU will be able to vote in the referendum because they are British citizens and the referendum is about Britain.

Unless of course they've been gone more than 15 years.

[IonaNE]

OP, I am like your DH - except I have paid the £1,000 and become a British citizen because for me it was worth the money and jumping through the hoops. Thus I could vote in General Elections and will be able to vote in the referendum.

UK nationals living elsewhere in the EU will be able to vote in the referendum because they are British citizens and the referendum is about Britain.

[JassyRadlett]

Actually, I lie. My complaint is with people making assertions that are totally incorrect.

It's not a question of interpretation, politics or positioning. It is factually inaccurate to state that dual citizenship is possible for all EU residents of the UK.

[JassyRadlett]

I have no complaint with anyone. Our bonkers franchise enables me to vote despite my not paying an extra grand to the chums in Croydon for the privilege.

I simply pointed put that it would be a risky move for an Austrian, or a Latvian, or a Slovakian to take up British citizenship in order to be able to vote in the referendum, knowing that if an Out vote was carried they would be cut off from the country of their birth.

Crucially, the UK has decided to confer these rights upon Commonwealth resident citizens.

Indeed, just as it could decide to confer them upon other groups of resident non-citizens. I'm simply pointing out that the basis on which these decisions have been made are completely lacking in logic or fairness.

[GoodbyeToAllOfThat]

Surely your complaint must be with Austria, then? The UK allows dual citizenship.

[GoodbyeToAllOfThat]

We all know the UK has "special" rules for the Commonwealth, because of the empire or out of guilt from the empire, something to do with the empire.

Crucially, the UK has decided to confer these rights upon Commonwealth resident citizens.

[JassyRadlett]

Jassy - no reason why you'd have to give up your home nationality, you can have dual citizenship (or more if you like/are eligible.)

Not if your birth country doesn't permit it, which is why I chose Austria as an example.

Quite a few countries don't allow it, and you automatically lose your citizenship if you acquire another. And quite a few of those countries are in the EU.

I do wish people wouldn't make blithe statements that have no basis in fact.

[JassyRadlett]

Seriously - if you want to vote in this country, become a citizen. Otherwise you have fuck all right to demand anything

Except that's not a consistent position, albeit charmingly worded. Current franchise affords voting rights to some non-citizens but not others, and affords different levels of voting rights to some groups of non-citizens based on the type of election.

[JassyRadlett]

^Do you know when this could happen? Has it definitely been voted?
I'm one of the many "voteless" British non residents -no vote in UK as I live and work abroad, yet no vote in France as I am not, and have no desire to become, a French national.^

It was a Bill in the Queen's Speech but no detail or timetable beyond this session yet - and commencement date would be later.

I imagine the Tory Eurosceptics would not want it implemented before a referendum.

Actually just checked - the govt has said it would not be in place for the referendum. Guess they saw the inevitable Parliamentary fight coming...

[IKnowIAmButWhatAreYou]

I would then challenge you to donate 1000£ to a charity of your liking for the right to vote in any future election. Is that an unreasonable request? If so I would really appreciate an explanation why?

Because it's an infantile comparison - are you 5?

Seriously - if you want to vote in this country, become a citizen. Otherwise you have fuck all right to demand anything #wantitallfornothing

[popmimiboo]

OP -I'm British abroad but can't vote in the UK due to 15 year law and can't vote in France due to not being a French citizen
I feel your DH's pain.

[popmimiboo]

Knittingdad:

• The government don't understand that logic, either, so they have decided to change the law so that British citizens who have moved abroad will keep their right to vote in the UK for life.
  
  Do you know when this could happen? Has it definitely been voted?
  I'm one of the many "voteless" British non residents -no vote in UK as I live and work abroad, yet no vote in France as I am not, and have no desire to become, a French national.