...to think that if a company markets a product as SPF30 they should be able to back that claim up?

[WhatALoadOfOldBollocks]

Recently found a mineral powder marketed as SPF30. Initially I thought, great, but then wondered how much I'd need to use to give me that protection. After all, there's a recommended amount of cream products people should use to acheive the SPF marketed, so surely there would be with this? There was nothing on their website to advise. So I thought I'd ask them and find out. After all, surely they would have done tests so they knew their product was SPF30, and they'd be able to tell me how they acheived that, right? Nope! Here are extracts of my email correspondence with the company (I'm happy to tell people which company it is if they PM me but don't want to get into hot water by putting it here).

Me: I asked 3 questions including, "...How much product would I need to use to achieve the SPF30?..."

Company: answered the questions except the one asking how much product to use.

Me: "...how much product is required to give SPF30? Lotion sun screens will say how many tablespoons per body/how much for certain body parts as a guide so users will apply the right amount (apparently most people don't apply enough). Having not used mineral sun protection I'm finding it hard getting an idea."

Company: "Oh yes well you will need to apply this if being exposed to the sun as a recommend time of every 30 minutes, however this will be dependent on the strength of the sun and should be used with caution when exposed to the elements".

Me: "What I meant was how much product, i.e. what weight/amount/volume would I need to put on my face, say initially, to give SPF30 coverage?"

Company: "There is no set rules for this and as long as the area has an adequate amount covered then this will be ok, so this is mainly the advice we would provide".

Me: "OK, but "an adequate amount" is subjective; it will vary from person to person. I'm asking for an objective answer so I don't inadvertently use too little of the product and put my skin at risk. Surely to market it as "SPF30" it was tested in some way, showing results that "using x amount of product over x area would give SPF30 for x amount of time"?"

Company: "Yes you are correct , this will vary from person to person depending on the skin type and tolerance, also this is tested for the sun protection factor, and is to be used mainly on the face and as long as this is covered with a good amount of the products for your own preference. I understand this is very vague, but is different from a sunscreen cream where you could be advised to apply a tablespoon amount".

And that's how it's been left. None the wiser to how they came up with the "SPF30" figure or how much I need to use!

I generally use a factor 50 face block and minimal make up when outside, as you do often need to keep applying it.

I seriously doubt the amount of the mineral powder people would normally use on their face would be anywhere near enough for the protection to be any use.

That's right Whirlpool, specifically this product.

"... So I suspect the claim is bollocks and that worries me as people will be misled into thinking a quick brush of powder is going to do the job..."
My thoughts exactly, which is why I particulalry hate this brand of beauty industry marketing bullshit. Quite simply they're most likely promising what they can't deliver, and it's only because I tend to question stuff that I thought to ask them for specifics. Otherwise I'd put a light dusting on my face and think I was protected.

"Does anyone know if the face creams - daily moisturisers which claim SPF are any good?"
I'd imagine it would very much depend on the product. In other words, are they one of those companies whose products allegedly don't give the SPF stated or not when tested independently. The gist I get is that they are not as good as using a proper sunscreen, partially because we'd just put them on once a day and that's it, yet they would need reapplying every couple of hours, and because we wouldn't use enough of it in the first place.

"It sounds from the last response as though they don't actually do any of their own product testing"
Hmm, I wonder how I can approach this. I'll probably find that they are perfectly within their rights to market something they've produced on the basis of the ingredients. But would that mean they didn't test the finished product I wonder?

The ingredients list is:
Mica
Titanium Dioxide (CI 77891)
Silica
Ascorbyl Palmitate
Tocopheryl Acetate
Retinyl Palmitate
Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Juice
Lycium Chinense Fruit Extract
Ranunculus Ficaria Extract.
(+/-): Iron Oxides (CI 77491, CI 77492, CI 77499), Ultramarines (CI 77007), Bismuth Oxyxhloride (CI 77163).

Right, I'm going to reply to her email but am not 100% sure what to write, so any help would be great. I was thinking something like:

"Just to clarify, the ingredients have been tested for their SPF but the product itself hasn't? How can I be sure it's SPF30? You say amounts required depends on many factors, so I'll give specifics...are you able to advise how much product (in weight or volume) on first and subsequent applications (every 30 minutes), a pale skinned Brit, living in central England, would need to use in order to be protected to SPF30, if sitting by a south facing window all day, in May/June, when the Met Office UV index is 6 at highest? Or the same if the person was outside for 30 minutes at around 9am and again at around 5pm?"

Am I expecting too much to be given this information? Seriously, it's the sort of thing undergraduates would test for an assignment surely, so I'd expect an international cosmetics company to have the answers for customers straight away

No you're not expecting too much. They have to be able to back up their claims.

Do carry on. I always buy SPF moisturiser etc but I have NEVER thought to check up on it. I am glad I read this thread.

Oh wow

I was wondering if it was "with factor 30" or something that would have some wriggle-room for them. But it says this:

"Maybe we can't sunbathe in baby oil anymore, but we don't need to slather ourselves with heavy, greasy chemical sunscreens, either. Our super-portable SPF 30 Natural Sunscreen is sheer and weightless, and it can be used from head to toe without clogging pores. It'll change the way you feel about sunscreen forever — for the better."

So they are marketing it not as a powder "with" SPF but specifically as a sunscreen. Yes OP you are right to question this 100%.

Oooh

"Patented built-in brush makes it ideal for the whole family — even little kids"

So yes if this is an effective sunscreen and they can tell you that then I think people will be queueing up! I'm a bit though but willing to be convinced... you are doing a great job here OP.

Perhaps make your query simpler - SPF 30 is meant to filter 97% of the sun's rays, regardless of your skin type, time of year, etc. (More info here.) So your query might be: 'how much of your sunscreen do I need to apply every 30 minutes to ensure that at least 97% of UVB rays are prevented from reaching my skin?

You could say, the product says it will work as a sun block for me and my children. Can you confirm that. How much will I need to apply, and how often, to ensure our skin is protected.

Thanks Moresnow that's a great help. I wanted to keep it simple otherwise I'm liable to trip myself up, and this is so much better than my attempt.

I'm still at it needing to be reapplied every 30 minutes! Are they serious?! Usually the mineral sun blocks, that physically deflect the UV rays, don't need to be reapplied so much because they are photo stable, unlike the chemical sun creams that have to be reapplied every couple of hours as they break down and stop absorbing the UV (if my understanding is correct)

I tried that Whirlpool. What I got was a "it depends" type reply. The most specific she's been is that it needs to be reapplied every 30 minutes

I'm confused at how applying SPF30 can vary from person to person- surely it's like moresnow said and regardless of skin type/tolerance the cream would be blocking UV not relying on the skin under the cream?

I thought if the sunscreen is applied properly my skin shouldn't have to defend itself against the sun?!

Please keep going and see whatever genius replies next!

"I always buy SPF moisturiser etc but I have NEVER thought to check up on it."
Nor had I Iggy until I read the following FAQ on the mineral foundation I use from another company:

"Do Barefaced Beauty cosmetics contain Sunscreen?"
Although we do not market our products as containing a sunscreen, there is a naturally occuring sunscreen in our cosmetics but we do not know what the SPF is as different shades contain different amounts of this ingredient. It is for this reason that it is always advisable not to rely on this product as a sunscreen.

The ingredients list for the foundation - Mica (CI 77019), Zinc Oxide, [+/- Ultramarines (CI 77007), Iron Oxides (CI 77491, CI 77492, CI 77499), Titanium Dioxide (CI 77891)] - is similar to that of the "SPF30", which got me wondering; how can one company say it's SPF30 yet another, selling similar products, says they can't be specific.

What's also helped was studying a science based degree, where we couldn't state anything as fact unless we could back it up with a peer reviewed study. Consequently my default is "prove it!" But I'm horrified that something as important as sun protection seems so unregulated unless it is and this company is massively taking the piss

Does this help? www.carolinehirons.com/2013/04/spf-cheat-sheet.html

They've probably bought in an ingredient, and it was quoted as having an spf 30. So the research may sit with the supplier. Even so, the customer service person should be able to contact the marketing or npd person, and get them to follow up to get you a real answer.

"Please keep going and see whatever genius replies next!"

I'll definitely keep going, even if I have to pass it on to people with a bit more power. I'm almost starting to feel sorry for the woman in customer services who picked up my first email and is now stuck with me

ask for someone in the r&d department. to annoy

Anyone else up their spf game this morning after reading this thread?

I'm in my early 40s and a few people have commented on how unwrinkly/good my skin is lately. I've been using daily moisturiser with SPF since my late teens, work indoors and am careful about overdoing it sun-wise. However, in answer to the previous post about whether I've upped my game, I hadn't consider that my moisturisers may be chemical sunblocks, as I don't reapply during the day. Is Titanium Dioxide chemical or mineral sunblock?

Titanium dioxide is a mineral block that forms a physical barrier on the skin so that UVA and UVB is reflected away from the body. Chemical screens work by absorbing the UV before is reaches the skin. I think. What I might do is a study on sunscreens over the summer holiday because it's quite confusing and I want to be completely clear in my mind what it all means.

Another email sent to the company...

Me: "How much (volume or weight) of your sunscreen do I need to apply every 30 minutes to ensure that at least 97% of UVB rays are prevented from reaching my skin as per SPF30 criteria?

May I ask for the contact details of your R&D department as they should have the technical information I'm after. Thank you".

Another one who thinks that they are definitely on the dodgy side in making these claims - the company that did the other blurb about it might provide some help but we can't guarantee it so use other stuff to be safe is so much better as you know exactly where you are.

The needing to be reapplied every 30 mins thing is incredibly suspect too, especially if they haven't noted it on the packaging, as most sun protection doesn't need to be reapplied that frequently. And you certainly wouldn't be reapplying face powder that frequently if you were just using it as face powder so it's not a given that this is a standard behaviour for this sort of product.

I think you should also ask them about whether or not it's effective in water and how often it needs to be reapplied if it gets wet, be that in a rain shower or after swimming... Just to add a little more confusing into the mix. They're doing well to keep spinning out such meaningless spin at you despite your determinedness - hope you get a proper answer out of them. And Or report them to the ASA, trading standards, etc etc...

...And please ask what the hell difference does skin type/tolerance make when the product should be protecting the skin, not relying on the skin's own defences!

It's like saying "this crash helmet defends up to blah blah depending on the thickness of your skull" ha

Nkfell, that's standard for SPF- it's a number you multiply against your natural ability to protect against burning to work out how often to reapply.
eg a very dark skinned person might be able to sit in the sun for an hour so could reply SPF 15 only after swimming/washing it off while a redhead who burns after 5 min would need to reapply the very same product every 15 mi. Bear in mind that the math problem only discusses burning- you can still be damaging your skin even if you aren't turning red!
more information buried under all the doom and gloom here:

www.skincancer.org/prevention/sun-protection/sunscreen/the-skin-cancer-foundations-guide-to-sunscreens

Sorry, 45 min is of course 15 X 5!

Sorry to hijack- just one last question...I assumed they would test SPF30 on people with more vulnerable skin so that anyone else was pretty much guaranteed at least SPF30?

I'm mixed race and fairly dark, I don't burn but I always use sunblock on my face and SPF30 everywhere else so, assuming I have the correct amount of coverage I would assume I would be protected up to at least SPF30?