to think we need to leave the EU or start concreting over the countryside

[InnTheJungle]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32816454

300,000 more Eastern Europeans than last year. Every prospect of that continuing.

Where are they going to live? We aren't building any more housing.

A small flat in butt-of-jokes Peckham is over half a million quid now. www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-34291575.html

Baby boomer NIMBYs object to any building in the countryside.

Pouring more and more people into the same number of houses - it's a massive fuck-up.

Given that I don't see the NIMBYs dying any time soon, it's time to leave the EU, surely?

I don't mind regulated immigration at all, in fact it makes sense!

I just don't like the kneejerk "Freeze the immigrants" agenda that some have taken up. There's a Romanian in the office next to mine, I can tell he's well regarded.

How does Switzerland do it, does anyone understand? They heavily regular immigration from what I vaguely understand but still have fairly free labour exchange with EU.

I don't have an issue with immigrants as people. I'm in no position to, what with being part forrin myself.

What I do have a problem with is population growth in a very crowded island - or, at any rate, a very crowded England. I live in a reasonably rural area with God knows how many planning applications pending and a new housing estate being built: the pressure to build hasn't been as high here since I was a kid c1980. Yup, we need the housing - but we also need countryside and green spaces (I'd have thought the Greens would have tackled food security in their manifesto, but I couldn't find that...)

I don't think leaving the EU is the answer, but God only knows what is.

"Set aside that I can't work out from your very unclear post whether you're actually for or against concreting over the countryside"

I am in favour, as a starting point (not in all cases, but certainly far more often than we do now). We are stuck with 1950s boundaries in many cases, which are no longer appropriate given structural changes in society (household sizes, and their locations)

"To dismiss people who think we have an ethical duty to protect wild spaces both for general human well being and for our fellow species as old nimbies is frankly too stupid for words. But sadly a very common, and lazy viewpoint."

Well round our way it's certainly the reality. You will find someone with a house slap bang in the middle of a massive area of green belt opposing development a mile away.

Which is all very well, but I would have more sympathy if they were living in a city-centre apartment. Exactly who are they trying to save it for? The city-centre dwellers who are supposedly going to drive six miles out of town and stop on the edge of a dual carriageway to walk across a field, or for themselves?

And the people at the 'Save the Green Belt' meetings are overwhelmingly middle aged and older. Although perhaps that reflects that house prices have already excluded anyone who is not in this demographic.

"I suspect that like everyone else I have ever met with this opinion you also think said nimbies are selfish and oppose development near them because it will devalue their houses. One response to this- people who want more development always seem to argue for it on the grounds that it will bring prices down and they'll be able to take advantage. Just as selfish, just depends which side of the fence you happen to be on."

Those aren't equally selfish at all. The first person wants fewer people to have access to housing, to enrich themselves. The second person doesn't want to deny the first person access to housing, he wants to expand access.

Not so hard to work out why immigrants are resented when you've paid into the tax system,and national insurance for 40 years. Then you have to share a vastly reduced service,with people that haven't contributed one penny. Simple.

Switzerland is in the EEA, so is signed up to free movement of workers. There are greater restrictions on this than EU nations (eg conditions for those not employed for more than 3months and students).

They had a referendum last year to cap EU immigration. As a result of the vote, the EU is threatening their membership of the EEA as it means they will not be abiding by the terms of their EEA membership. Cautionary tale for the UK.

Switzerland is one of the two western countries with the highest proportion of foreign residents. The other is Australia, which is obviously held up as a beacon here when it comes to immigration policy.

Camelia immigrants by and large tend to turn up, pay taxes and NI, go back to their original country. In fact economically, the have a net positive contribution.

Not so hard to work out why immigrants are resented when you've paid into the tax system,and national insurance for 40 years. Then you have to share a vastly reduced service,with people that haven't contributed one penny. Simple.

Oh. I'm so sorry. I've only been paying higher rate tax and NICs here for a decade, with the possibility of another three decades before I retire, unless I return to my home country before then. Like many immigrants who are here to work, I'm not planning to spend all or even most of my retirement here.

Meanwhile, my education (the benefits of which are being enjoyed by the British economy in a field with a shortage of skilled British workers, which was why I got a visa) and childhood healthcare didn't cost the British taxpayer a penny.

Perhaps Britain should reimburse my home country for the money they've saved?

OK

Ok... What?

so before the General election, concerns raised about immigration levels & the impact it had on communities & public service were met with horror from liberal lefties accusing anyone daring to question such things as ignorant racists. The BBC in particular were guilty of this IMO. Now it's the BBC's top story on the 6pm news hahahahahaha

It's always the BBC's top story when the stats come out.

Despite the replacement level the population grew from 1990 to 2013 from 56m to 63m. So that wouldn't be expected to impact on housing

of course, no political agenda at all

Yeah cunderthunt the BBC are gutter journalism at its worst. At least the daily fail is consistent in the shite they pedal.

I'm simply pointing out that there isn't an anomaly in the immigration stats leading the BBC news. It always happens.

I'm suggesting nothing else.

Lots of Eastern European families have moved to very rural areas far away from the SE where young families are needed to keep school rolls viable and village communities from ageing without replacement of young and working age people.

They are also working in agricultural jobs that British people don't want.

If everybody could just see beyond the SE then this can be seen as a good thing for the wider UK.

And if we don't want transient young male five-to-a-room populations then we should be making it easier not harder for families to come.
All the Eastern Europeans I've met have strong family values and are an asset to their adopted communities.

You see I dont live in the SE and housing is a big issue in relation to affordability.

Yes. Affordable housing is an issue here. But are immigrants really affecting the affordability of housing? Here it's "downsizing" ex-city-bankers and retirees snapping up the housing that's too expensive for the rest of us.

I wouldn't worry too much about the countryside being concreted over, OP. If you google "how much of England is built on" or similar you will find lots of info showing that it's way less than 10%. If you want all the technical info, you can look at the government's land use change statistics.

museum if the population increases there is more demand for housing. So unless more is built the prices and rent go up. Its basic demand and supply economics.

That's true about supply and demand in an area. But there are places in the UK where homes cost less than 50k!!!!
For native UK residents it's often important to be near family but immigrants could easily be attracted to less populated areas rather than just kept out.

PANIC! PANIC!

I work in manufacturing. I would say about 75% of the factory workers are eastern European. The numbers are growing because English speakers are in the minority which is very isolating, we have a massive problem getting people to stay.

The company get to keep wages low, most earn less than seven pounds an hour, not enough to provide a decent quality of life for anyone. If I was a young eastern European I would be moving here too, I don't blame them, we all want to improve our lives. Some people must be very blinkered not to see the massive impact immigration is having on the blue collared job market and the chances of employment for British born young people.

We still have unemployment in this country. It is a struggle for lots of people to find full time employment. There are so many zero hours contracts or part time contracts with changing shift patterns it is a difficult market for lots of people.