to think we need to leave the EU or start concreting over the countryside

[InnTheJungle]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32816454

300,000 more Eastern Europeans than last year. Every prospect of that continuing.

Where are they going to live? We aren't building any more housing.

A small flat in butt-of-jokes Peckham is over half a million quid now. www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-34291575.html

Baby boomer NIMBYs object to any building in the countryside.

Pouring more and more people into the same number of houses - it's a massive fuck-up.

Given that I don't see the NIMBYs dying any time soon, it's time to leave the EU, surely?

"rules which this country either made themselves, or agreed to when signing treaties"

EU referendum was in 1975. Mass EU immigration occurred 30 years later.

"If you don't like it, change the rules. "

That's what I am suggesting.

laws regarding immigration from non-EU countries are passed by the UK alone

There is a referendum promised on EU membership for Britain- I think the bill has/is to be debated shortly which will formalise the referendum

I appreciate that perhaps you started a thread because you fancied a moan, and didn't appreciate how annoying it is to people who literally every time they access any media in this country are reminded of how crap they are and how they ruin everything

Well, you've moaned now, so...

i am a citizen now, so (probably) safe, but I know there are people who worry about losing their jobs, who worry for their safety, who feel threatened as a result of the migrant=scum rhetoric that is so popular here

It is bollox

I am European, work in an industry where we cannot recruit enough staff for love nor money, we get absolutely no British applicants.

Similar situation at work here. We do get british applicants but most of the qualified candidates are not british.

If you want to stop free movement from the EU we would also need to leave the EEA.

Half of the immigration from the EU is from EU15 countries not Eastern Europe.

The idea of restricting immigration between countries of different wealth levels is attractive, however the idea that Cameron floated last year (sorry can't remember the exact details but something to do with GDP levels) which would prevent the poorer countries' immigrants moving here would also prevent Brits moving to Germany for example.

I am surprised that immigration from outside the EU has increased after Cameron repeatedly stated that they had reduced it.

May I suggest that anyone concerned about immigration read the actual ONS report www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/migration1/migration-statistics-quarterly-report/may-2015/stb-msqr-may-2015.html#tab-Main-points

I'm afraid immigration issues are very poorly reported in the media not helped by the government setting net immigration targets - we can't control the other side of the equation ie people emigrating from this country.

I too am confused that people seem to rarely link population growth and our housing crisis. But mention net migration on mn and there is immediate hysteria about racism so it's generally easier not to bother.

That people can't accept that yes many European and non European migrants make a really positive contribution to our society (and have been needed to support our aging population) but there either needs to be a limit at some point or an improved infrastructure me. But hey ho.

"Half of the immigration from the EU is from EU15 countries not Eastern Europe."

Yes but we also go to EU15 countries. We have 300,000 Brits in Spain, for example, but there are 300,000 Germans in Britain. There's a balance there.

Nobody wants to go and live in Poland.

Innthejungle the only relevant figure surely is population growth?

• goldenhen Thu 21-May-15 13:26:50

Where do you live?

There was a very interesting article posted on here a while back about specific problems one town had with immigration.

Off top of head one school had to take in 100 extra pupils in one term, and all without English.

I am European, work in an industry where we cannot recruit enough staff for love nor money, we get absolutely no British applicants.

Why is this I wonder? So many posters here scream "there are no jobs" - what industry are you seeking applicants for muppetme?

engineering. Noone wants to study it, the ones that do go to finance as it pays over 5 times better

YABVVU and fuck off with your "baby boomer NIMBYs"

I'm an immigrant & work in an office full of immigrants; one of my bosses is an immigrant & another is the daughter of an immigrant.

It seems to me that Britain has long taken the intellectual cream off other countries & would never enjoy the same economic prosperity or reputation for high calibre service and research without us.

Could be wrong. Maybe time will tell.

The population still isn't at a replacement rate even with immigration. There are fewer than two births per woman in the country on average.

If we don't recoup that through net positive migration, there will not be enough people to do specialist jobs (4 paediatricians gone from our hospital in three months, most appointments cancelled) or seasonal, poorly paid jobs (have waited ten weeks to get my aunt out of hospital due to lack of carers, a job no one wants).

The problems of migration can be addressed, we can build new housing, new schools and hospitals. It can be a positive thing, but not when we have austerity squeezing all of our resources and pushing us in to competition with each other.

And the only answer politicians offer to our lack of resources, housing, health and education, is to blame it on immigration. It is lazy, dishonest and untrue, but it is tempting to believe because its an easy answer.

As long as a significant majority of people are led to believe the immigration problem lie, the real problems are never going to be fixed.

Fighting talk lljkk . The thing is though, as far as I'm concerned, a lot of Brits are mixed in terms of hereditry. Most of us are Brits with input from other countries so to speak, so over the decades there has been immigration. Many - many - people have genes made up from many different countries. The fact that people worry about immigration is not a stand against people who have already immigrated, it's just that it needs to be regulated from now. Or does that sound like bollocks? (I realise its simplistically put)

www.independent.co.uk/property/house-and-home/property/britain-is-suffering-from-a-housing-crisis--who-is-to-blame-and-how-can-we-fix-it-9113329.html

Here's a good article about the housing crisis and causes in the UK

engineering. Noone wants to study it, the ones that do go to finance as it pays over 5 times better

Sounds like you need to pay better, then. Competition, free markets, that kind of thing.

I can't really be bothered to engage with a lot of your post but I want to take issue with the baby boomer nimby bit.

Set aside that I can't work out from your very unclear post whether you're actually for or against concreting over the countryside, let me say this:

1. I am passionately opposed to anything other than brownfield development. I am young and not a nimby. I live in a city. I volunteer for a residents association locally that is currently supporting applications for large scale development. To dismiss people who think we have an ethical duty to protect wild spaces both for general human well being and for our fellow species as old nimbies is frankly too stupid for words. But sadly a very common, and lazy viewpoint.
2. I suspect that like everyone else I have ever met with this opinion you also think said nimbies are selfish and oppose development near them because it will devalue their houses. One response to this- people who want more development always seem to argue for it on the grounds that it will bring prices down and they'll be able to take advantage. Just as selfish, just depends which side of the fence you happen to be on.
3. The housing shortage is massively exaggerated- there is undoubtedly a problem but a lot of it is down to houses in the 'wrong' places and in the 'wrong' ownership.

Fwiw I'm largely with you on the immigration issue compounding this problem, but I don't really think leaving the eu is the solution. If you are worried about concreting over the countryside, the government is as much of an enemy as the eu, if not more.

I can't really be bothered to engage with a lot of your post but I want to take issue with the baby boomer nimby bit.

Set aside that I can't work out from your very unclear post whether you're actually for or against concreting over the countryside, let me say this:

1. I am passionately opposed to anything other than brownfield development. I am young and not a nimby. I live in a city. I volunteer for a residents association locally that is currently supporting applications for large scale development. To dismiss people who think we have an ethical duty to protect wild spaces both for general human well being and for our fellow species as old nimbies is frankly too stupid for words. But sadly a very common, and lazy viewpoint.
2. I suspect that like everyone else I have ever met with this opinion you also think said nimbies are selfish and oppose development near them because it will devalue their houses. One response to this- people who want more development always seem to argue for it on the grounds that it will bring prices down and they'll be able to take advantage. Just as selfish, just depends which side of the fence you happen to be on.
3. The housing shortage is massively exaggerated- there is undoubtedly a problem but a lot of it is down to houses in the 'wrong' places and in the 'wrong' ownership.

Fwiw I'm largely with you on the immigration issue compounding this problem, but I don't really think leaving the eu is the solution. If you are worried about concreting over the countryside, the government is as much of an enemy as the eu, if not more.

www.economicshelp.org/blog/6399/economics/impact-of-immigration-on-uk-economy/

Here's another good article. Covers all pros and cons of immigration.

I agree Woozle with your last sentence. The Conservative party is not a 'green' party.

Also the insane house prices in (parts of) the uk are caused just as much by economic and social factors which promote house ownership as pretty much the only viable saving method for your average person, and the prime asset class for everyone else. Immigration and/or a perceived housing shortage are not the only, or even necessarily the biggest, factors.

See I think immigration is a good thing. We get a lot of skilled people coming here to work, pay taxes and make contributions to our industry and communities. There was an article a while back where it said that immigration wouldn't be an issue if housing and other things weren't as stretched as they are. The solution to that is for the Government to actually build some more bloody houses!

Actually, where I say immigration I mean population, with immigration being a part of that.

Tbh I think by far our biggest issue on this front is movement within the uk and the incredibly unbalanced regional economies. Everyone and his dog wants to live in London and the SE. Combined with a secondary issue of absolutely shocking and growing inequality which is increasing other local bubbles created by second home ownership, so many of the perceived 'nice' (pretty, low crime whatever) bits of the country or practical (jobs, good transport to said jobs) are not stratospherically expensive.

V diff from pure supply and demand which is what it always gets reduced to. It's much more complex.

ARE stratospherically expensive.