I should have the right to buy from my my to let landlord after 6 years here

[chocolatekatie]

No government will ever do it as loads of them are into buy to let hence why they do all they can to prop up the bubble.

My landlord thinks he's some businessman doing me a favour by letting me live here. Actually he's the problem, he just had money so can afford to buy up property - push up the price and force people like me to rent.

It's all interesting stuff. Generally the hard workers find life is better and safer in life which I know is contrary to those quotes from Jesus above.

I suspect not feeling jealous of others (I genuinely don't) tends to make people happier. I think I'm very lucky that I don't see someone with lots of wealth and that makes me unhappy and instead I think if I wanted that I could probably get it.

As for manual v other labour - I remember when I flew myself off to my island in the Pacific (which I've sold to pay some of the divorce debt) (which by the way was survival, not luxury, tent etc) and spent the time clearing 30 years of plastic from my beaches and the like. It is certainly something that makes most of us happy - to move, be outside, get exercise. I've posted elsewhere on here my graduate postman son might indeed have the route to happiness even according to my suggestions - which is eating whole foods, moving, carrying heavy loads, getting out of breath and early nights. All the secrets for a happy life and good balance of chemicals in the brain and seratonin production are tehre - go forth and join royal mail and thou might be happy.

As for things going wrong... I do know how difficult life can be but I have said I'm deprived (because I'm happy and healthy). I was over drawn with £1.3m of debt and no savings for a good few years father my divorce and 100% responsible for 5 sets of school University fees, the children, their care, their costs. Now that is hugely privileged of course because because I could afford the interest only mortgage gambled on the currency markets but not exactly a secure financial position. I have obviously had the usual share of life's problem - both parents ill, then dying , the divorce etc. The things that are difficult for most of us are the same whatever we earn.

Nnotauniquename* I don't wish bad things upon people, but for a lot of people on this thread, I almost wish that they'd have an accident, nothing too serious, just enough so that they couldn't work for a couple of years, eat through their savings, get behind on the mortgage... start from nothing, in a rented house, and see how easy you find it! I have a funny feeling those people would soon be

I think that is a disgusting thing to write.
I am one of these people who some mumsnetters refer to as being 'lucky' because am an owner occupier rather than a tenant.
I have had the misfortune to be in the sort of position that notauniquename is wishing on people. I had to give up my job to care for a child who is very ill and has multiple and complex needs. We have used up our savings to service the mortgage and go without luxuries due to the loss of my income. Fortunately we have managed to get reasonably straight in the last few years but there is no way I could return to work at the moment as my child's needs make it impossible.
I would rather my child was well and I lived in a rented house where I might have to move every couple of years. If money could fix my child I would gladly sell my house and use the equity to fund his treatment.
Money and home ownership is not the be all and end all and you shouldn't wish bad things on people just because they seem to have something that you don't.

This thread has turned unpleasant (not to mention batshit crazy). The one thing I can take from it is "merailing". Genius!

I'm just going to leave this here too...

www.vocabulary.com/articles/chooseyourwords/envy-jealousy/

Some people could use it.

I don't wish bad things upon people, but for a lot of people on this thread, I almost wish that they'd have an accident, nothing too serious, just enough so that they couldn't work for a couple of years, eat through their savings, get behind on the mortgage... start from nothing, in a rented house, and see how easy you find it!

Been there. Was left with nothing. Could quite well end up there again. Do we hoard wealth away for ourselves? Do we hell. Has it stopped us paying one of our employees rent arrears so they and there family weren't evicted? No. Did I empty my bank account of everything saved for my children's Christmas presents to stop bailiffs taking my friends car? Yes. Have we stopped paying the wages in full of a long term seriously ill employee until the point his medical insisted he could no longer work even though he was off for months? No. will we find him a job if he wants to return? Yes.

We regularly lie awake worrying about our responsibilities to others.

You wish bad things on some one like me? Well keep wishing, but should it happen what happens to the hundred odd people we employ? Who's going to replace the corporation tax paid into the system. All this because I can afford a home? I'm the bad guy?

Indeed. You can argue there is little a woman can do better for others than being the next Bill Gates and eradicating malaria from the planet rather than washing her husband's shirts for 30 years.

Although there has always been that big issue with definition of "charity"in law and contemplative nuns in orders where you never go out - is that supplication and prayer a moral good? Not of course if there is no God.

but the reason the point is relevant is some of us ( amazingly the ones who earn the most and are most likely to own a property) work harder than others and that pays off

What utter bollocks, LotusLight. The world is full of people who work harder than you, and yet get paid less and don't earn property. I don't just mean people who for various reasons are not in well-paying professional work, but also plenty who are professionals, but who take low-waged jobs - at which they work very hard - because their goals are to help people, not just to get rich.

I've no doubt that you do work hard, but it is a particularly privileged and narcissistic view of the world which tells someone that their success is entirely due to their own hard work, and not a combination of things (which of course includes their own hard work).

Are we really still stuck in the old fashioned, sexist mindset that hard manual labour is the hardest work there is?

Good point - but we equally need to guard against the assumption or implication that 'harder' work is reflected by commensurate financial reward.

but we equally need to guard against the assumption or implication that 'harder' work is reflected by commensurate financial reward

and just what criteria should we use to measure how hard work is, the hours put in, the mental effort, physical effort, degree of pressure, stress, trauma?

I think there's a good chance that by and large those with the greatest wealth do the least work

The most annoying thing about the banking regulation crackdown is that 100% mortgages seem to have vanished. That was how I got on the housing ladder. Too many banks were giving them to buy to let investors. They should be available for first time buyers only if they have a proven track record of paying rent or other monthly bills.

Jassy Good point - but we equally need to guard against the assumption or implication that 'harder' work is reflected by commensurate financial reward.

I'm just imagining recruiters for your typical mid level job reading this and thinking "groaning". The applicant who thinks they are wonderful but no-one else agrees. Yes, we all know people who have progressed up the employment ladder via creeping and crawling rather than talent, but generally, you do need relevant qualifications allied with competence for most jobs. Otherwise you will be sacked. I certainly know that in my field, if you take a really difficult job with long hours, that's your only hope of getting into the 80k plus bracket. Equally you can take a public sector job at 35k per year, which is much easier, slower paced, less stressful and standard hours. Seems to be a pretty direct correlation to me.

I think some commentators need to get away from the assumption that those who have succeeded haven't worked hard, outside the limited world of inherited wealth and trust funds.

I actually think (going off-topic) there is a bit of a problem in this country with some entitled men who assume they should be able to walk into an easy job for life, by virtue of their mere existence, and who then blame their relative failure in life on others who have worked harder. Don't be taken in by it.

One reason immigrants and their children do so well and I am glad my sons' classes at their fee paying school are full of them is they actually understand a lot of people in the UK have forgotten - the amazing coincidence that hard work pays off. If your average brit wants to pretend that is not so, do badly at school and never earn much let them stay in their rented accommodation resentfully jealous of everyone but I would much rather empower them to achieve things.

ThisTime - yes I have the same view and it came out earlier on the thread - biggest issue for those who truly want to buy is needing a 15% or 10% mortgage is the real killer unless you earn a lot or have a granny who dies and leaves you £10k. As a free market libertarian I would argue the fault is caused by the 2014 interference in the free lending market to protect in the worst nanny state fashion banks from their own lending practices. Instead let the banks lend where a sensible manager knows he has two wise young people before him or her rather than a tick boxer saying - ah you contribute a lot to a pension so we will lend you less or you have to have a 15% deposit.

I don't think we need 100% loans as we want people to show some sweat grind and commitment to buy but only requiring a 5% deposit makes a massive difference to whether people can afford to buy or not.

But in answer to your question Jassy there are various standard tests which the courts use to compare like work, for example in sex discrimination cases. Its not my specific field, so I'm not perhaps the best person to explain them in detail, but if you are interested, if you google "like work sex discrimination tests" or similar, you will probably find quite detailed answers to your question.

There have always been problems with certain jobs being assumed to be more worthy of a higher salary than others, but on a neutral assessment, the differential not being justified. For instance, until recently public sector workers such as cooks and cleaners, who were mainly female, were being paid less than the mainly male painters, gardeners and decorators who were working for the same local authority. On an neutral assessment, many of them were found to be doing like work, and entitled to the same level of remuneration.

So you can't think of any stressful, important jobs that require hard work and aren't very highly paid? Really?

I have no problem with acknowledging that those who have succeeded have worked hard. DH is well paid and he works bloody hard. I do have a problem with the implication that those who haven't "succeeded" (in the context of this thread, by owning at least property I guess) have "failed" ONLY because they haven't worked hard enough.

hard work pays off? lol what a lie. What was the moto of the concentration camps, work will set you free?

Don't immigrant families have a much higher teenage suicide rate due to the pressures put on to them?

I owned outright my home after working in my 20s, wasn't particularly hard - just long hours and high pressured then moved somewhere cheaper to semi-retire and enjoy the rest of my life.

I haven't RTFT, but I would say YABU.

Your home is owned by someone else, so I can see no reason why you should have the right to force this person to sell it to you, and presumably at a hugely discounted rate. How is that fair? If you can afford to buy a similar property, you are free to do so. If you can't, then surely your choice is either to continue renting or buy somewhere you can afford?

On a practical note, if after a set period of time all tenants in all properties had a right to buy (and at a discounted rate) then the tenancy agreements would be set for less than this period and never extended past this. Many people would lose any stability they have and long-term rentals would cease. I don't think that's a positive step forward.

That said, there are problems within the rental market that need addressed- but I don't see how this fixes any of them.

Any measure that makes it easier for people to buy increases demand for the limited pool of property available. So prices go up.

I know a young couple and child in a South London borough, living with in-laws to save for a deposit. They were hoping for a two bed terraced house. Within a fortnight of Help to Buy being introduced, they had been priced out of the borough. Couldn't even afford a two bed ex-council flat. There were queues of viewers for every property and bidding wars. Of course prices went up.

We need to increase supply. The demand is already there.

It's unbelievably offensive to suggest that those who haven't succeeded in buying haven't worked hard enough.

I am not sure what OP is expecting and demanding.

Her family has been lucky enough to rent the same house from the same landlord for years. He happened to buy it under a buy to let scheme. Therefore, he should now be required to sell it to her?

Because why?

Or are you just moaning at the realisation that you have paid him enough money you could be well on your way to actually owning it, had you been paying a mortgage instead of rent?

You must be a pretty bitter and twisted person to wish an accident on anyone.
I wish that people could read!
I said I almost wish
I also said that "I don't wish bad things upon people,"

because as it is I don't wish any harm upon anyone,
I do however wish that many people on this thread could have any sort of empathy or understanding of what it is like to survive in todays housing market.

"You have no idea what people have gone through to put themselves in the position that you dismiss so readily,"

you are right, whilst I have a lot of experience in seeing what people sacrifice to have their own house. I don't have any idea about what most have gone through, just the same as most of the people on this thread who are landlords have no idea what it is like to be a first time buyer today!

I said in a different thread.

When my grandad was young he worked as an unskilled labourer, had ten kids and bought a house with 12 rooms.

My parents were a decade younger than I am now when they were able to get onto the housing ladder. with one working a skilled job one working an unskilled.

My wife and I both have skilled jobs. and have no hope any time soon of owning.

You know what?
house prices are increasing. mortgage entry requirements are increasing, minimum deposits needed are going up, and the average age for first time home ownership is going up.
why is that? maybe because it's harder now than it has ever been at any point in time for first time buyers?!

so no matter what anyone feels that they sacrificed it's the same or worse for people today.

My father in Law was telling me how he worked ten hour days and didn't got out for a year in order to save, (in his unskilled manual labour job)

So lets look at the math of that:
Rent each month 700, council tax 150, water 60 gas+electric £100 each month phone rental and internet £30 total amount for a house with warm facilities is £1050 per month, (before you need food, or a car to get to work)
6.70 per hour. 10 hours a day 30 days a month
£2010 a month * 12 = £20100 a year.

So with only £20100 earned over the year, take off £12600 that you need to spend in rent. leaves £7500

so sure, he could work long hours and not go out for a year?
today, even if you worked longer and harder and didn't eat for a year it'd take 3 years to raise 10% of the average house.
If you're in London, then ever owning a house is just a dream, instead you can continue to be "at the mercy" of landlords, who rarely maintain their properties, but keep taking money.

It's harder this year than it was last. harder than the year, decade etc before that.

I'm not saying anyone should pity me at all.

Just saying every buy to let landlord who gets a better rate than a first time buyer well they would find it harder to be a first time buyer today.

I don't think that being a landlord is a barrel of laughs either.

Perhaps what I should have said is that nobody should be making claims until they've waked a mile in someone else's shoes.

but yeah, it was much easier to ignore what I actually said any make something else up.

Thechandler - I didn't ask a question. I pointed out that the market does not reward labour in direct proportion to how 'hard' a job is or how hard a person works. To suggest otherwise by referring to the groans of mid-level recruiters is nonsense.

I have worked many jobs in my life. Often the hardest work - and often the least rewarding - were worse paid.

I am well-paid now. The market is rewarding my brain (luck), opportunities and education (combination of luck and hard work), connections and networking results (combination of luck and hard work), the fact I had a family who instilled the right values and taught me the right skills (luck), the fact I was able to emigrate and be sponsored for a visa at the right time (partly luck), and a variety of other factors.

I work long hours, but less hard than I have when paid less. I'd argue strongly that I've never worked as hard as an A&E nurse, or a miner, or a variety of roles the market does not reward as it does mine - simply because the market likes that my brain works in a certain way. The market does not reward my hard work - it rewards the fact that my skills and existence have a certain scarcity value.

To suggest otherwise is pure ignorance.

Jassy I didn't ask a question. I pointed out that

I work long hours, but less hard than I have when paid less. I'd argue strongly that I've never worked as hard as an A&E nurse, or a miner, or a variety of roles the market does not reward as it does mine

To suggest otherwise is pure ignorance

I see your point. It might well be one that is specific to you however.

I think lots of people work harder than miners or nurses, and many of them are paid more, but obviously its not right on left wing to say so on here.

"I wish that people could read!
I said I almost wish
I also said that "I don't wish bad things upon people,"!

The word "almost" is academic. It makes no difference whether you wish something to happen or almost wish something to happen. There must be some inherant anger for you to have written your comment the first place. Any wish whether it is good or bad or "almost a wish" will just remain an idea unless it is backed up by action. Thankfully ideas do not usually hurt anyone, however unpleasent they are.

LotusLight has taken incredible risks in life as well as working hard to make money. I believe that some of risks have paid off and other risks have not have backfired. Personally I would not be brave enough to take some of the risk and pressure that LotusLight chose in her life and I have less money as a result.

I think lots of people work harder than miners or nurses, and many of them are paid more, but obviously its not right on left wing to say so on here.

Oh, don't be silly. It's not about 'left wing', it's about not making claims based on evidence.

There is no link between actual or perceived 'hard work' involved in a job, and the level of pay given for that work. That's simply not how labour markets work. Pay is linked to the value created by the labour, the scarcity or otherwise of the skills, and a variety of other factors.

How much hard work is required is not a primary (or even secondary) determinant when it comes to setting pay. The question is 'how little can I pay and still get the right person for the role' in most workplaces. It's not left-wing ideology, it's very simple economics.

Many people who've done well have worked very hard to get there. Many people who have worked just as hard have not done as well, because other factors - including circumstance and luck, nothing wrong with a bit of realism and humility - have been different for them.

I work hard. I do not work multiple times as hard as a teacher, or a nurse, or a firefighter. I have skills they don't have (and vice versa). The market rewards my skills multiple times more than theirs, rightly or wrongly, because there are relatively few people who can do my sort of job, and because the organisations who hire me consider that the value created by my work is worth the investment.

It's not a difficult concept.

I do not think tenants should have a right to buy after 6 years. However, perhaps a clause could be added to the Tenancy Agreement that if the landlord decides to sell the property, that the property is offered to the tenant giving them the opportunity of first refusal before going on the open market. Perhaps a small discount would be a good incentive if the tenant showed interest, after all I assume the landlord wouldn't have any estate agent fees.