To ask band 5 nurses (at lower end of pay scale) how much you earn?

[Llbarls81]

I've just done a calculation as I'm due to qualify in September and I'm shocked at how little the pay is!! I've just worked out that a band 5 entry level nurse takes home around £1400 a month?? Surely this isn't right?

I am really confused - are you talking about a "night waking " job where staff sleep over but wake when needed/ or a hospital ward that is so over staffed vs patient need that the staff sleep all night in shifts ?
If it is the latter - well what a terrible waste of resources and terrible management.

Not once have I said I didn't think it was a waste of resources and poorly management. In fact, throughout this thread I have said the opposite.

I think that it's shocking that nurses are being paid to sleep when others are working in an acute setting for 15hour shifts without a break with a lot of stress and pressure, desperate for one more pair of hands.

I am 100% aware that there are many, many departments in hospitals were being short staffed is the norm and nurses are in tears daily (the one a different friend works in has an investigation ongoing by the health executive (or board, can't remember the name of the body that is doing it) because things have got so, so bad and unsafe. It's horrendous.

But there are lots of different types of nurses, different types of roles, and different settings to work in. Not all of them are go-go-go in the high pressure environment you are speaking about.

poor management*

you are outdated/inexperienced in the views you hold

oh I do profusely apologise that in my 8 years working in health care in various settings including acute wards I've seen the martyr complex... clearly I'm mistaken oh it must be because I'm a poor little nurse whose only been qualified for 1 year ( 16 months actually but whose counting) and clearly know nothing. I don't see how seeing nurses who still give off the air of mrtyrdom has anything to do with the Francis report... and not once have I commented on the 4 hour break thing except to say I obviously didn't think it was right. My opinion is not outdated or anything to do with my inexperience it is what I see, I've seen it on this thread, I see it in social media and I've seen it when I go on the wards day in day out from all branches of nurses... its not every nurse but it'S there. I suppose I best take my wrong opinion, inexperienced ass out of here.

I agree with you thenAye-Its disgraceful if this is happening.
In 28 years as a senior nurse in an NHS Trust I have never encountered this.
My point is that it is dangerous to promote this as the norm.
Just because nurses are not in highly acute areas doesn't mean they are not under pressure to provide adequate care.
Community nurses for example are increasingly under pressure with high case loads and increasing geographical areas for which they are responsible.
No one is saying all nurses work in high dependency areas - do you really think this is the only area where nurses work under pressure ???

Do you mean the CQC ?

The Francis report has been a massive kick up the arse for nurses every where frik - I have the sense and humility to acknowledge that.
It empowers them into doing whats right not taking on the martyr role of " Im doing my best " but in wanting to do better and demanding the resources they need to do that.
You have a lot to learn quite frankly.

I couldn't agree with you more about the Francis report but just because the Francis report empowers nurses doesn't stop some nurses behaving like martyrs. Do I need to learn to ignore what I see and stop having an opinion on why I see? Please tell me what I have to learn that will stop me from seeing with my own eyes and hearING with my own ears the nurses that behave like martyrs... I genuinely want to know, as you said you have 20 odd years experience what is it I'm doing wrong when I see these nurses who go on a out how selfless they are and how they never go to the toilet and how every day they save everyones li es because I do see nurses like this very often.

Well it sounds like you are working in a very poorly managed area.
It is not good nor professional practice to behave like this and as you say not something to be emulated.
It would be flagged up straight away -this type of behaviour benefits noone.
I would love to know where you work !!!

Perhaps your friend was being flexible with the truth- sleep for four hours and read a book for 8, all four members of staff. Where did she work? I'm completely confused how there would be nothing to do regularly for 12 hours that needed 4 staff? Please tell me that where ever it was has closed/cut staff members? Genuinely if you look on the NMC website sleeping on shift is not at the discretion of your manager? You have a duty of care to those patients who are relying on you? You would be struck of or sanctioned if this was common knowledge.

don't want to turn this into an us and them but I don't actually see this in the direct area I work. its when I escort detained patients to the general hosptial I've seen it a lot and when I've done shifts with hosptial liason Team. Granted that trust is failing and wouldn't suprised me if it became the next mid staffs. My sister is a general nurse who until recently worked in the trust and said on some wards the conditions are not good And she got fed up of escalating her concerns and nothing coming of it (Whole other thread there). Anyhoo I think we've managed to take this thread way off topic over nothing really. We all agree we aren't paid enough for the work we do... peace?

Ahhh frik you are a chippy newly qualified. We've all been there and think we know it all, I second you have a lot to learn.

People are explaining their experiences where they do/have worked. No need to be insulting

Please take your own advice... I find being called a "chippy newly qualified" quite insulting and condescending... im aware I have a lot to learn but I'm a firm believer that everyone has a lot to learn or are you one of those nurses I've met that know absolutely everything?

What a horrible thing to say, Sharon.

You aren't doing your profession any favours with your attitude on this thread.

She can get promotion in due course - I know a very senior nurse manager on £70k I think it is and secondly nothing to stop people taking up my ideas above such as setting up their own nursing agency etc in due course or moving into a career which is better paid. Seize the day and make the choices which make your life what you want it to be.

I always find it interesting how so many people who aren't nurses seem so heavily invested in how much they are 'worth'.
Beyond entry points nurses pay veers away from the professions they are always compared with. A constable or newly qualified teacher will automatically progress to £37k between 7 (police) and 10 (teachers) years experience. A nurse will progress to £27k in 8 years. The only way a nurse can move off this is to apply for promotion to a higher pay band. These bands are all being removed as hospitals try to reduce their pay bill. For example an average ward probably has 1 band 7 and 1 or 2 band 6 posts. In areas where the workforce is very stable these positions might not ever become vacant, hence lots of staff stuck on band 5 for their career.
As an old git I've listened to years of debate about the worth of nurses. Years ago we were told we couldn't expect equal pay to other professions as we weren't graduates. Now of course we are graduates (many of us post grads) but apparently now our degree is worth less...

It is progression that is an issue - as I said before I have 2 post grad relevant degrees and 17 years experience and yet it has taken me to the beginning if this yea to reach £28k.

Lotus, while your suggestions of how people could possibly in some way increase their earnings by changing profession etc are of course correct, it doesn't solve the issue of poor pay and progression for nurses who wish to remain in clinical roles within the NHS. Yes, you could possibly set up a public transport company but then your skills and experience are lost to your potential patients and the taxpayers who trained you. Is there not some argument for the realistic remuneration of your skills so that they can be retained?

In my case, there wasn't any question that I wasn't capable of studying medicine or law - I didn't want to. I'm not a nurse because I couldn't manage being a doctor but because I worked in a hospital as a teen and chose the role I wanted to perform. I have spent 8 years in HE have a dipHE, BSc and PGDip and have nearly completed my Masters and yet I have no prospect of progression or pay rise. To some extent, that is my choice as I wish to remain in nursing but isn't that the point? That nurses aren't value or seen as worth retaining? A real shame that skills, experience, qualifications are just haemorrhaged because of poor pay and conditions.

Interestingly, in many areas such as health visiting, the previous NHS trusts have been commissioned to private companies so new starters in these areas are paid on old nhs bandings but also not included in any of that private company's bonus or incentive schemes and offered less annual leave etc than they would get with an NHS contract. The worst of all worlds.

Good point code I know previously community mental health nurses were all band 6... now the post is being offered up to band 5s, same level of responsibility but less pay.

Have read this thread with interest.
Am top band 5 with 25 years experience post qualifying.
I only work very part time and the few band 6 posts in my area are far more b ours than I want to do.
I have quite a niche role and without blowing my own trumpet I know I do it well and am respected by my managers and colleagues.
Interesting the point made re police and teachers being able to be paid a lot more after 7/10 years service without changing bands.
That is definitely what should happen in nursing although of course it won't.
I agree not all shifts are life and death situations but they all have the potential to be,any one of us if we take our eye off the ball for a minute could do something albeit unintentionally that could cause harm.
That level of responsibility is hard.
12 hour shifts may allow for 4 days off but I see young colleagues absolutely burnt out by them,especially as breaks not guaranteed.
Plus the way nhs rotas work is not like police or fire service, they are done a few weeks in advance if you are lucky so if by some remote chance a nurse had the energy for a second job other than bank nursing it would be difficult.

Everything code says.

Just re-counted- a teacher will get to £37k in 8 years.

So...at 8 years into their career the 'average' nurse will be on £10k less than the average teacher or constable.

They'd be at least as qualified. Their jobs are at least as risk prone. They are as responsible for lives. The jobs are equally easy/difficult to fill.

But a nurse is 'worth' £10k less.

Other allied health professionals with equivalent qualifications but less responsibility for life/death are mainly employed at band 6 and above. Nurses are mainly employed at band 5.

Why is that? My feeling is it is sexism, because nurses are mostly women, more so than teachers, police or other health professionals. I would like to see it taken to tribunal in the same way those council employees did.

mappe there are only 8 progression points on the Band 5 pay scale so even including 3 years as a student - 11 years.
Im a bit puzzled as to why it has taken 17 years ??
Unless you took time out to study ,I think if you take any longer out than 3 months ,you start down the scale again.

I do agree with your comments .
Specialist nurse posts ( own caseload, specialist skills, prescriber)were band 7/8 ( depending on skill) and are now being advertised at band 6. The type of nurse required for this role would be someone with a lot of experience ,probably already working at 6/7 anyway.
So extra responsibility and stress and your skills/ extra training are not being recognised.
Many nurses are chucking in the towel and heading off to Agency work.
There is travel involved but excellent pay and no extra expectations, staff management etc.
I know several who are getting so many offers of work, they could do 48 hours a day !

Code that is not true.

Teachers pay in the first band goes from 21500-31500. The only way to go above that is the cross the threshold into a higher pay band, which is similar to a nurse getting a promotion to band 6.

You are being very disingenuous making out that teachers all automatically jump way up there, they don't.

Police does go up to 36k, but it starts lower.

All the nurses earn more than my postman son.. but then that was his career choice. His tough luck not that he's interested in money.

How much is anyone worth? Why do I earn in an hour the weekly minimum wage? Was I born with special powers? it is just a free market. If people stopped going into nursing we could import more nurses or put up pay or make people pay for their own healthcare. There is about to be a rail strike over half term - those rail workers are obviously concerned.

I worked out yesterday I had not had an increase in pay for one thing I do for about 16 years! (I'm self employed) There has certainly been no pay increases in the private sector and many people moving without much choice to 4 day from 5 day weeks. I am not sure public sector pay has done worse than private sector particularly given most people in the private sector work for companies with 5 or fewer staff.

Have I missed some critical point somewhere in the thread about Postmen?

All teachers can apply yearly for the upper pay range, they have to demonstrate certain competencies and that they are fulfilling normal objectives. A band 5 nurse can only progress to other pay bands if there are vacancies. Therein lies the difference.