To expect to have the opportunity to vote in the EU referendum

[Mistigri]

I'm British living abroad in the EU. As things stand I don't expect to get a vote in the EU referendum - the Tory right will fiercely resist enfranchising both 16 and 17 year olds, and expats.

AIBU to believe that the estimated 2-3 million British people who have taken advantage of free movement within the EU should get the right to vote on this issue?

(I don't have or expect a vote in general elections btw, as a general rule I don't believe that people who are tax-resident elsewhere should have the right to choose a government that doesn't affect them directly.)

Interesting. I describe myself as an "expat" because to me "immigrant" implies a more permanent move. I wonder how the locals here would describe me?

Re. Those paying taxes overseas being eligible to vote in GEs. Should everyone in the UK who pays tax there, regardless of citizenship status be allowed to vote then?

clarinet one of the reasons it's hard to find information is that not much hard date exists.

Commonly cited guesstimates are 2 million in Spain, 800,000 in France and several hundred thousand more in other EU countries, totally perhaps 3-4 million.

I am a bit sceptical about those estimates - notably because it is my experience that many retirees keep one foot each side of the channel, and continue to declare their income in the UK to avoid higher continental taxes, and to rely on an EHIC and return to the UK for elective healthcare. These people are not really migrants.

On the other hand, as no one is collecting data, it's not impossible that these are underestimates. How many would be affected by a brexit is difficult to say, as it would depend on the terms of the exit - if the UK remains in the EEA then freedom of movement remains and we are OK; if it were a complete brexit, we would presumably be in the position of a US or Australian migrant and therefore would be subject to visa and residency permit regulations (for those with less than 5 years' continuous residence, anyway).

No one is scaremongering but many of us are rightly concerned about our futures.

Sorry bout the typos, the Ipad keyboard was designed for younger fingers than mine ...

Every so often my MIL makes a sarky comment about uncontrolled immigration completely forgetting that I am one of 400k Irish passport holders living in the UK

My Mum's the same. She forgets that she herself is one of those Irish passport holders....

Having spent the last 8 years half killing myself to make sure DS got an education that left him best placed to make the most of a higher ed in the UK, I have no idea how I failed to realise this until about ten minutes ago but.... oh crap.

EU residents' uni fees and loans are probably going to depend on the outcome of the referendum.

Which means if the 3 years continuous residence in the UK is still applicable, I have about 12 months to either convince DH that his England phobia is groundless, or win the lottery, as contingency plans in case of an out victory.

Well this is a pickle.

AiCee that's us too... We were already looking into the DDs possibly going to uni elsewhere in Europe and this may become an essential if there's a full on Brexit.

Bollocks me too. Was really hoping DS might get to do uni in the UK.

Hmm how can I make lots of money fast?

pointy

DS's helpful suggestion is that he would like to go to the States for higher.Ed. And he's wafting away my protests that we're not made of money...becuase it will be FREE ! due to a sports scholarship.

I need a plan B, but one that preferably doesn't involve me selling a kidney to pay for it.

There are lots of other countries, including several EU ones, where you can study in English :) You don't say where you llive, but being bilingual opens lots of doors. We are hoping that DD will be selected for a high school course taught partly in spanish which would mean she would also be able to study in Spanish-speaking countries (as well as French or English).

DDs have Dutch/US dual nationality so could study in the Netherlands where very many courses are taught in English. They have no Dutch though, we aren't a bilingual household.

Aha !

Possible plan B proffered by clearly terrified DH who is (almost insultingly) desperate not to be frogmarched to live in England 183 days of the year for three years.

Ireland !

They are staying in the EU. Anglophone country. Not such a massive culture shock for an Italian born/bred (half) Brit. He'll be near enough for weekends popping over to stay with my family, and them popping over to see him.

That could work.

Off to google to see if the latest cunning plan has a fatal flaw.

I was surprised to find out how many countries offer courses in English. A friend's daughter is studying medicine in Lithuania and the course is taught in English.

If your DC are hoping to study languages/ history or literature then there are some great scholarships in Asia (where I am)
I have free accommodation, teaching fees and some living money. It's not loads and quite basic, but your uni could be almost free, just the price of some flights. Feel free to PM if you would like info. Courses taught in English too.

I want a vote on the EU, as my parents had a vote on the EEC and were lied too by Heath & Wilson.

YANBU. I am dreading this referendum even more in a way than the Scottish referendum. In one fell swoop I'd be separated from my daughter and husband who are Dutch. I'd have to go through inburgering to get a Dutch passport and it's taking me ages to learn the language. I doubt I'd have mastery of it in that time.

And no, I can't get a British passport for my daughter, we could never afford the visa fees for everyone, and the 5 year rule wouldn't apply to me as we foolishly moved to Scotland for six months during said other referendum before moving back again for personal reasons.

My benefits would stop and I would be left to the mercy of the UK system. I'd have to brave the exceedingly terrible mental health services in the UK again which would make me even worse.

Perhaps it will be ok but the sheer thought of what we may have to battle should it be a yes makes me really ill.

The Scottish referendum was not the same and was in any case ill thought through, terribly worded and poorly managed.

I also get the rage when I hear the main reason for leaving is immigration. So it's fine to have Western Europe and Scandinavian people working and living in the UK but you go beyond that it's suddenly not acceptable and we are all being drowned in immigrants stealing our benefits. How fucking ridiculous. I call that racist and ignorant. The UK really is not that special that half of Europe and their wives are desperate to get there.

I should be able to vote. Any British citizen living in Europe should have the right to vote. It directly impacts on the life of me and my family in a way the Scottish referendum didn't. And, in the same way I felt in Scotland, a vote to leave the EU is one of the most selfish things people could do.

Are you going to start the inburgering now, just in case? We've probably got three to four years before it becomes an issue.

I am yes, I would rather not take the risk and would give up my British passport if needs be. But I have to do a lot of work on my Dutch! and it just doesn't happen fast, language learning.

Rolodex thanks for that - DD1 wants to study history. She's only 14 though, so she may change her mind.

I'm not too worried right now as I can't imagine this country would allow me to do 2-3 years (by the beginning/end of 2017 respectively) of a 6 year qualification that I most likely have no way of picking up midway through in the UK and kick me out in the middle of it regardless. I'm also waiting on a national residence permit unrelated to EU law so I should be covered once that comes through.

I'd be pretty screwed if I didn't have the option of said residence permit (ie. if I didn't have a native long term partner), though. I presume the UK leaving the EU(/EEA?) would potentially result in me having to pay international fees for an otherwise tuition fee-free course. I don't have any money to pay tuition fees if that became the case. My earning potential here without finishing my course is ridiculously low due to the higher standard of education (Masters degrees generally expected, etc). I was working in a fast food restaurant before I started this course. When I finish I'll be taking home over £30k a year relatively early on in my career. I won't be impressed if the Tories put a stop on that for me so I can either stay here and work in a fast food place or come home to the UK and work in a fast food place...

...just occurred to me, moving back probably wouldn't be an option anyway as I don't know how easily my partner would be able to follow me. Staying here and working in fast food it would be, then...

besides if all the Brits in continental Europe are forced to move back won't all the continental europeans here be forced to move back too? So there will be lots of jobs/houses/school places to go round surely?

Yes, but the Brits abroad and the continentals here might not necessarily 'match' in terms of those jobs / desired places to live! And many of those continental Europeans have also built a life here - I know whole families who've been here for years, paying (not inconsiderable) tax, working in important jobs, whose kids have only ever gone to British schools - this is their home, just as expats in Europe have made their home elsewhere.

I've never called myself an "expat"...and didn't actually consider myself an "immigrant" (which I probably am). I'm European and happen to live in the UK. I certainly didn't move her because of the benefits. I'd get higher pay and a higher standard of living in my home country. The weather tends to be better, too. I'm not here, because I want to take advantage of the NHS, either. I used to have very extensive private medical cover before moving here. The only reason why I live here is because my DH is British and his foreign language skills are beyond abysmal. I work here. I pay taxes. I own property.
It's incredibly ignorant to assume that immigrants all come here, because they want benefits and free stuff. (It's really not that great... I envy friends at home for their maternity packages.) Besides, why would it be ok for every other European country to have to take in migrants (many of whom are actually refugees), but not for the UK? Let's face it, people have to go somewhere ...and unless we can solve all the world's problems and not have any wars or disasters, hunger or disease anywhere, people will try to move to somewhere, where they are safe.

I live here, because my life is here. If all else fails, though, I'm happy to move back home...and take DH with me.

Just a thought from another person acknowledged below:

There are a lot of incredibly furious Brexiters out there. People who are so riled up with anger that they're utterly incapable of forming a remotely coherent argument. Some of them are so furious that they don't seem to be able to even differentiate between the EU and other non-EU institutions (the IMF, NATO, the UN, the ECHR ...). Some of them rely on appalling displays of inverse snobbery and anti-intellectualism to form the basis of their fact-free "us vs them" arguments in favour of Brexit. Some of them are utterly humourless people who use the privileged background of a comedian (Al Murray - that he rejected) as personal attacks because he doesn't cheerlead for Brexit, whilst completely ignoring the fact that the main figureheads of the Brexit campaign come from similarly privileged backgrounds, and that unlike Al Murray, they're still firmly entrenched in the political establishment.

The kind of embarrassingly incoherent sh*t-slinging tactics detailed in this article are examples of what happens to the standard of debate to when people let anger dictate their actions and decisions. Sadly both camps in the EU debate have realised that playing on people's basic emotions (anger and fear) is a good way to herd them over to their side of the argument, hence the appallingly low general standard of debate about such an important political issue.

Acknowledgement - this is from (Another Angry Voice blog) Wednesday, June 1, 2016
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