Not politics related! AIBU to think this mother having her daughter's baby, is a bit, well odd.

[Number3cometome]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32652095

Don't get me wrong, I feel incredibly sad for them, but if the daughter hasn't specified what she wanted doing with her eggs after her death, then this shouldn't be allowed?

Alice I thought the point was that she hadn't officially indicated how she wanted the eggs to be used?
Number I'm sure that is a valid point if you have a vested interest. Which I admit I don't.

theendoftheendoftheend

No she hasn't said how she wants the eggs to be used, therefore they shouldn't be because no one can safely prove how she wanted them to be used.

This could have been completely against her wishes - so the fact she sadly cannot speak for herself should mean that the eggs are not used.

I also don't have a vested interest at present, but if I did, I wouldn't be happy that a relative could come forward and use my eggs after my death for how they see fit, and clearly the deceased didn't leave instructions despite going through the process of freezing the eggs.

No action still creates an outcome, and one that may have been against her wishes. The point is that we don't know what her wishes were.

Yes, the outcome being her eggs are left alone!

Children aren't toys. This is sad, odd and a violation of human nature. Shameful.

Exactly. Which could be the exact opposite of her wishes, you see?
The point is that we don't know. You are judging other people at what must be a very difficult time in their lives. Its quite unnecessary.

Without expressed consent the situation remains in the status quo. Think about it logically - you can't possibly say all the things you don't want to happen after your death only the things you do because by default it will be far, far fewer.

Is consent as a concept really so hard to understand?

If she wanted to do something she would have done it. She was clued up enough to have eggs harvested and stored which is not something done lightly or without very, very thorough paperwork and expressed and written consent.

if she wanted to do something she would have

You can't possibly know that. Unless you were there? Things may have deteriorated quicker then expected and as a consequence she wasn't able to complete the paperwork.

I do understand the concept of consent, thank you for checking. That's not the point. The point is that, presumably, none of us know the ins and outs of what she wanted and its really not for us to pass judgement, call it odd or claim its a violation of human nature. I'm not arguing for or against the mother being allowed to use the eggs, I'm arguing against being judgemental (and in some cases nasty) about people in an emotionally vulnerable state, especially when you're not in possession of all the full facts. Is that so hard to understand?

YABU

It is strange, but I do feel for them. They've lost their only child and are in a situation where a fetus that is their grandchild could be destroyed. I can understand why they are so desperate to do it.

I think you are being ridiculous now theend. The simple fact is that without clear, explicit consent nobody except the owner of the eggs can do anything with them. This is the only way to ensure you are complying with somebody's wishes.

There is no evidence the woman who died consented to this.

I feel very sorry for the bereaved parents but I also feel we have to respect the wishes or the deceased and as it currently stands that was to have eggs harvested and stored.

There is no foetus. They are unfertilised eggs.

I think ridiculous is a bit of a harsh judgement. But then I also think the whole judgey aspect of this thread is rather harsh so can't say as I'm surprised!

TheEnd you are right, we don't know what the daughter would have wanted. That's the problem. In a situation like this, her wishes would need to have been made very clear in some sort of legal documents, and this presumably hasn't been done if the family are going to court.

However, I think the most common reason people facing this sort of cancer treatment chose to have eggs frozen is so they themselves can use them at a later date if they choose to do so.

This is a far more unusual situation, and so you would expect that clear instructions for the use of the eggs by her parents would have been left if that's really what this poor woman wanted to happen after her death.

I suppose in this, as in many things, I believe that unless consent can be proved to have been given for the eggs to be used in this way, then we must assume that it isn't what was wanted.

I don't think most people are passing judgement on the family though. Almost everyone here has been very sympathetic towards them and the situation they are in. As a bereaved parent myself, I can empathise with the desperation this mother must be feeling, and I am truly sorry for the family.

I haven't lost a daughter, so I have no idea what this woman is going through.

I have no idea what choices I would make if I were in her position.

She is still grieving (and will undoubtedly continue to grieve for the rest of her life).

Alice I am not arguing either for or against this lady being allowed to use the eggs, that would obviously be something for a court to decide and I can't honestly say that I have any opinion either way. My point is that any opinion put forward on here art what the daughter may or may not have wanted to happen to her eggs is merely conjecture.
I was not meaning to suggest everyone on this thread has been unkind, I apologise that that is how it came across. The OP asked 'AIBU to think that that this lady having her daughters baby is a bit well odd' and someone else commented on it being 'odd and a violation of human nature'. I find both those stances to be unreasonable.
I am so sorry for your loss

Just because someone is grieving doesn't make their stance morally right. Just because an embryo is out of a woman doesn't mean she doesn't have to consent. This is a serious slippery slope and the courts are right to block it. It's not being judgmental - it's upholding the law and respecting the stated wishes of the daughter.

Well there are several issues that this raises. First if all I imagine the poor parents are grieving terribly and I completely understand their feelings. That said I can't believe that the daughter truly wanted this to happen. If she did I have to imagine that she would have created clear written consent to the procedure but she didn't. She froze her eggs for her own future use which so sadly didn't come to pass. That's vastly different from wanting her parents to use her eggs to have another child.

The next issue is the age of the potential mother, I think she is 59 currently. IMO I think this is too old to bring a child into the world. I won't start a "it's against the laws of nature" argument but there really strong reasons why this shouldn't happen..

This isn't actually the first time this has happened. A few years ago in Israel the parents of an 18 year old girl who was killed in a car crash petitioned the courts to allow them to harvest her eggs so that her mother could have her child. In this case there was never any question that the girl had given any consent for this, the parents' argument rested on them saying that they knew "she wanted to have children someday and she would have wanted this" which was highly speculative at best. Again this a case of sadly grieving parents and the court understood this but was firm against it. I think they appealed but they lost. I must say as I sympathise with the parents, I was relieved that such a thing was clearly not allowed, it would have set a dangerous precedent.

apple no one has suggested otherwise. Other then that unfortunately the lady in question didn't state any wishes, I'm sure it would be much easier for the parents if she had, whatever they were.

theend

This is disingenuous at best. Wanting your parents to bear your children after you die is not typically the reason that cancer patients freeze their eggs. The only evidence that she wanted to do this is her mother's account of a single conversation that was unwitnessed by anyone else. All her conversations with doctors are about her own ability to raise a child. Her wishes are not "unknown", by some reasonable margin, they are known.

My point is that any opinion put forward on here art what the daughter may or may not have wanted to happen to her eggs is merely conjecture

Yes, and the only thing that we can be sure of is that at no point did she give full informed consent in writing that her mother was to use the eggs in the event of her death. If she had done that then this case wouldnt be going to court.

As she didnt give consent before her death the only right thing to do is refuse permission to the mother. She froze her eggs so that she could have a child after her cancer treatment ended, not so they could be used by her mother, if she had then she would have said so and she didnt.

It would be totally different if they were embryos and a surviving husband/partner wanted the mother to be a surrogate so he could have his own child. But thats not whats happening here. The mother wants to have another baby (we dont know the mothers motivation for that but I posted my suspicions upthread) and is effectively attempting to steal her deceased daughters eggs to do that, its distasteful and wrong. And yes I do mean steal because without the daughters consent, thats what it would be.

Its not your family, you don't know or love them, so really what's it to you?!

Because if this is allowed to happen then is sets a very dangerous precedent, one that I would be very opposed to.

Cases such as this can change the laws of the UK, sometimes for the better and sometimes not, and that affects us all.

Please continue to ignore where I have repeatedly stated that I am not arguing whether or not the mother should be given permission to use the eggs. I'd be immensely surprised if the parents were given the go ahead, but either way I have no interest in passing judgement on this situation or the people involved. I think its a shame that others do.