To not know the risks of non vaccinated children near other children?

[MrsFlannel]

my sister in law lives in Australia and has a 1 year old. MIL told us last night that SIL is not vaccinating the baby. This is an issue in Oz at the moment as they're implementing a new plan whereby the parents of non-vaccinated children aren't going to get their family allowance money. [[
edition.cnn.com/2015/04/13/asia/australia-anti-vaccination-welfare-cut/ here...no jab no pay]]

The ethics of this are of course questionable...

MIL is worried about SILS baby and about my children being near him..we're relocating to Oz later this year....but if my children are vaccinated then surely he poses no threat to them? MIL is also worried about SIL losing money. She's a single parent and works only 2 days per week so she's going to really struggle.

The problem is that vaccinations don't always work for everyone or aren't 100% effective. Those that don't have the full protection rely on herd immunity, where the disease has so few potential people that it can infect that it can't survive in a population. I would be concerned, too. Also, kids don't have all their vaccinations and boosters until a good age and will be vulnerable until then.

My DC are ten and seven....I should have said. BUT I can't remember if DD2 had her last booster. I think I need to call my GP to check and get that done don't I? Before we go over there. MIL is very upset and worried about SILS baby. I do feel for her but it really is SIL's choice. I can't see how she will manage financially though!

Vaccinated children pose no risk to unvaccinated children.

Unvaccinated children/people can be carriers of infectious diseases and pose a risk to those too young to have all their vaccination and the immuno-comprimised (for whatever reason).

There will be people with a lot more knowledge on the subject along to explain why it so important for everyone who can be vaccinated to be vaccinated. But basically if your SIL needs family allowance she needs to weigh this up against why she doesn't want her children vaccinated.

Pirate so it's basically newborns who are at risk then?

Her baby isn't a threat to your children, as your vaccinated children shouldn't be able to catch anything from the baby (esp if your children seem perfectly healthy and most of the diseases you get vaccinated against are pretty visible/life-threatening so you'd know if the baby had them).
Your children are not a threat to the baby, their antibodies will not cause the baby to catch the diseases that they have been vaccinated against. They shouldn't be acting as silent carriers for diseases by getting exposed to them but not getting ill, because the whole point is that their immune systems would see off any exposure to those infections (and also they are pretty rare because most people vaccinate).
The individual problem with avoiding vaccination is that if you do meet one of the preventable infectious diseases in someone else who hasn't been vaccinated, the consequences are extremely bad, and of course, entirely unnecessary for most people to ever risk.
The societal problem with avoiding vaccination is that a) a few people can't get vaccinated, so they need everyone else to not infect them and b) if enough people are unprotected then unprotected people start to be common enough to interact with each other frequently and then if any of them at all do get exposed, the disease will run through the whole network and get them all. So for every new unvaccinated person you add in, the chance of spreading a disease between people increases, and the chance of one person in the network actually meeting the disease to start an epidemic off increases too.

There's nothing to worry about for your children, if they've been vaccinated then they're fine. Your SILs baby will probably be fine as well, as he/she will benefit from the fact that majority of children are vaccinated so the spread of any diseases will be far less and some of the diseases we vaccinate against are treatable with modern medicine.

It's up to your SIL how she manages her money, your mil sounds like she is worrying too much, and that is really a separate problem. Your SIL can't be expected to parent according to what will make her over anxious mother worry less.

Incidentally the 'potential epidemic' issue is magnified by people choosing not to vaccinate as a lifestyle choice and then naturally gravitating towards friends with the same values, as this means that children without vaccinations additionally get concentrated into little social pockets with a greater-than-average chance of mixing other unvaccinated people.

Yes, newborns would be at risk from unvaccinated people if those people had been exposed to an infectious disease (as they are too young to have had their vacs) However there are others who for whatever reason have no immunity and can became very ill if exposed to an infectious disease (i.e. contact with a carrier)

We all carry something nasty and infectious at some point, most commonly the cold which is why if you have any symptoms you should stay away from newborns or the immune-comprimised. If you've never been vaccinated for anything then you could potentially be a carrier of something really nasty like measles which could be awful for a newborn.

In a nutshell this is why if you can be vaccinated you should be vaccinated.

If you have PR or citizenship, I wouldn't worry about being upto date with vaccinations ( they will accept the red book as evidence) as your kids will need additional ones anyway eg chicken pox

Cadle when we went over there with DD she had some vaccinations as a baby...she was 3 months and they wanted to add some others to those she already had. Now they're older I wonder if there will be others? THey've had chicken pox already.

I don't think MIL has hassled SIL or anything...she was just voicing her concerns to DH and I last night. DH told her there was nothing she could do about it so it was best that she just let it go.

Unvaccinated children don't go around carrying these diseases just waiting to pass them on. I think your mother is worrying unnecessarily. If your children have been vaccinated then they are probably immune - if not, then they could also be 'putting people at risk'. From what I've read the vaccination uptake in Australia is actually quite high.

Newborns usually have immunity from their mothers for a few months ( usually longer if BF).

MrsFlannel essentially your children are fine and are not at risk from your you SIL's children and your SIL's children are NOT at risk from your children as they have had their vacs.

Your SIL's kids are at risk of catching preventable diseases and passing them on to the unvaccinated however. This is what the Australian Gov are trying to prevent.

The payments will affect people who receive income support type payments.

My mate had very very premature twins who could not be vaccinated until they were a year old (in hospital until 6 mo)...they were at risk from kids like your SIL's. And I have a baby nephew who has feeding problem...he is not medically able to have vaccinations and he could be very ill if he catches these preventable diseases.

It is pretty pointless anyway the benefit they will withdraw is means tested.

Every single one of the non vaxers I know are very affluent.

Your kids will be fine, it is the newborns and those unable to be vaccinated who are at risk.

It's not my Mother Bumble it's my MIL

Tracey yes...I'm pretty sure that includes SIL. Morloth not in my experience. SIL is a bit of a hippy....a lot of her friends are just like her. Low income.

I agree Morloth, in my limited view the non-vaxers are the fairly rich, and considered educated

And yes l did mean that face that way.

Having a vaccination doesn't guarantee immunity to the disease you are being vaccinated against. I've had my mmr jabs but a recent antenatal blood test has shown my immunity to measles and rubella is non existent, to the point where the midwife assumed I hadn't had my jabs. Some people just don't build up immunity, for whatever reason.

Assuming your children's vacs developed into full effectiveness, which they most likely did, SIL's family, unvaccinated people dont pose a risk for your family.

There is a chance your children are in the very low percentage of people whose vaccination didnt develop full protection. They might be at some small risk, though if they do get one of the vaccinated illnesses, it should be mild.

More than likely though, all should be fine for yours though double checking they are all up to date medically seems like something that should be on your to do list before immigrating anyway. Check yours too, adults need boosters for some, but often dont get them and it only matters if the herd immunity means they are exposed. measles went round my University a few years after I graduated, because so few students had been boosted and residence halls are close quarters.

My kids had all their jabs but two still got mumps. I live in an area where quite a high number choose not to have jabs (hippy type) so mumps spread like wildfire and although he had had the jab my son caught it. Dr explained all about herd immunity and how important it was.

The mumps component of the MMR was found to be around 60% effective iirc - much less than previously thought so there have been quite a few outbreaks of mumps over the last few years.

While no vaccination is 100% effective so your children could catch an infectious disease, the risk from a single unvaccinated baby for a vaccinated child is likely to be very low. The real issue when people don't vaccinate is the threat to herd immunity, or a situation where many unvaccinated people are present in one place (e.g. disney land).

The main danger is that you might see your nephew catch & be permanently damaged by a VPD. That would be very painful to see.

Because no vaccination is 100% effective, both sets of children could be a threat to each other. Your vaccinated DC might still not be immune to a particular disease, and therefore pass it to unvaccinated DN. Alternatively, unvaccinated DN might pass something to one of yours, if they've not acquired immunity from the vaccine. It does happen. Obviously a vaccinated person is more likely to be immune, but it's not a guarantee. As pointed out by pp, when a vaccinated person contracts the disease, they often get a milder version, but again it's not a guarantee.

I can see why MIL would worry about an unvaccinated grandchild, but of all the children this child will encounter who could infect them, yours are hardly at the top of the risk tree.

LadyCatherine I think she's projecting or trying to get DH to say something to SIL....because she's worried mainly about SILS baby. DH would never say anything though...it's nothing to do with him. Not his business.