to think I'm just a shit parent?

[NorksWar]

My son is 4. During the day he is (mostly) an angel and a pleasure to be around. But at night he won't fucking sleep.

He will sleep (sometimes after a short battle) if DH puts him to bed, but usually then wakes up several times and DH sleeps soundly through the crying. DH works shifts and when he's on nights DS won't sleep for me. People tell me I'm obviously not strict enough but tonight I've walked him back to bed every 5 mins since 7.30pm and he's still crying. He has been known to literally cry from 7.30pm until 7.30am. I've had 4 years of sleep deprivation and lost count of the number of car crashes I've had. I just feel like such a bad mother. I've also got 2 year old twins who have never been a problem.

My ds who is 3 and appears to be a confident wee devil boy is actually very insecure when away from dh or I and by away I mean in another room like his bedroom or if I leave him in any room for 2 seconds he runs screaming after me. We co sleep...otherwise we'd never sleep! I feel it's more important to build his confidence and have learned that it's his nature to decide to do things in his own time, if I pushed it before he is ready, it would just end up stressful for all. We have many people expressing their judgy views on us but they don't live our lives and our ds is far more important than their opinions on us co sleeping. You're not shit...you're sleep deprived and a saint for lasting this long without murdering someone

I have a 5 year old who would always chose to be in with me. He doesn't sound as challenging as your DS but he would always try it on with me and go to bed on his own fine for DP.

My DP works shifts and doesn't like bed sharing with DC's. DS went through a phase of waking at night when DP was away and screaming and shouting until he got his way. As you know, in the middle of the night there's often only so much you can be arsed with!

Our solution has been to make a deal. That he is allowed in bed with me only when DP is away at work. He is also not allowed to shout out and must start the night in his bed. If he wakes up he can take himself into my bed.

Just wondered if you could try and negotiate some "rules" with your DS?

And my advice would be not to let on to anyone in real life... People are surprinsgly weird about how nd where other people like to sleep!!

Oh gosh! Then if you want to co sleep just do it, absolutely. It's nobody else's business (maybe DH's if he's disturbing his sleep, but nobody else's). I was going on the assumption that you didn't want to, because most people seem to not like it. But he won't want to do it when he's 18.

I co slept with DS full time until 2.2 and then part time for several months after that. He'd climb out of bed and come and find me in the night if he wanted me and my rules were always no talking, no fidgeting. If he wanted to talk and/or fidget then I'd whisper "If you want to wriggle can you go to your own bed please?" Sometimes he'd stop wriggling and sometimes he'd say "Okay" and toddle off back to his own bed.

As time went on he came in less. I got used to sleeping alone and he started to disturb me more - pushing the duvet down and generally being hot. So I'd gently shake him awake and say "I can't sleep, can you go back to your bed now?" and he'd say "Okay" and go off just like that.

He's six now and comes to find me in the night maybe twice a year. Usually because he's ill or has had a nightmare. Of the last 3 times, he came in, at about 4am said "Mummy can I go back to my bed now please?" I said "Yes of course you don't have to ask!" and he looked visibly relieved (!), the second time he totally refused to climb in at all, saying how would it help, and the third time he came but then ended up by my feet rather than cuddling up, wouldn't settle and ended up going back to his room after some calpol. So don't believe the people who tell you he'll never grow out of it if you "give in" - I really would never have believed how much DS now values his own space while sleeping. He just wanted the comfort and reassurance when he was little and I am so glad that I gave that to him.

If you want to let him sleep in your bed, do it! Or buy a big bed for him that you can sleep in and then exit once he's asleep.
There's no "right" way, there's whatever gets you through. End of!
Best wishes! X

Our 4 year old end up in our bed almost every night and I don't usually notice until morning. We have a king size bed (although I realise that not everyone has the space or money for one) so there's plenty of room for all us and his 2 year old sister who often joins us too.

I think 3 / 4 is the age when their imaginations kick in and they start being afraid of being alone in the dark. I've noticed that DD isn't scared when she wakes up in the night; she just shouts for me when she gets bored with playing in her cot, but DS will say he heard a scary noise or saw a scary shadow.

I let mine co sleep...didn't care where they slept so,long as they did sleep and so could I. I never parried about what anyone else would say..none of there business. Do what works for you.

www.tamba.org.uk/document.doc?id=28&erid=1055731

Ds has a double bed, dd sleeps in the same bed with him 90% of the time.

As long as I get my sleep then I don't care if he is in with me, that way at 3am in the morning I chuck on kids Netflix and go back to sleep.

Really it is perfectly fine for him to sleep with you.

It is a weird western custom that forces little children to sleep alone. Totally unnatural IMO.

My two have their own beds and rooms and I can't remember the last time my 10 year old wanted to come into our bed, but our 5 year old often does, or goes and snuggles with his brother.

Path of least resistance when it comes to everyone sleeping!

Is he a noisy sleeper? Does he snore? Is he restless? Grinds his teeth? It's interesting that you mentioned sleep apnea. If he does then I'd get him an ENT evaluation. Chances are his tonsils and adenoids are big. This can disrupt sleep no end and keep waking him up.

Hi

Just wanted to say that this thread really struck a chord. I have a 4yo who has only really recently stayed in her own bed all night, and a 2yo who has slept through 7 pm -6am twice. This week.

We cosleep because it is the only way to save our sanity. Our oldest was very ill as a baby and we used to do one night on ans one night off. We have 2 large king size beds and DH and I sleep seperately from whem the children join us on first wake up. Most of the time we do get enough sleep to function but a recent speed of 5 weeks of illness when the children were both ill and then I was left us all utterly exhausted so I do sympathise

Cosleep. And rest.

If him being with you works then do it. Our 4 year old has always co slept and his sister (10) has a hideaway bed in our room that she knows she can use whenever she likes, she'll often hop in if she's had a bad dream or just doesnt want to be alone. I hate sleeping alone, so i can understand why my kids would too...i also rememeber being scared of my room when i was growing up but having no choice but to stay there.

The sleep apnoea thing jumped right out at me.

DS1 had bouts of apnoea. It can come and go as they grow if the problem is structural. He had a posterior tongue tie and very high narrow palate. This distorts the post nasal apperture which is the opening to the airway which can cause sleep apnoea. It also restricts the space available for the nostils, forcing the child to mouth breathe, which also causes problems.

He was also snoring/teeth grinding, all of which disturbed him and he was extremely restless even if he didn't actually wake up.

This all went undiagnosed until he was 6yo. He started early orthodontics at 7yo and wore headgear to open up his nostrils to stop the mouth breathing etc. Within a matter of weeks, he was sleeping peacefully. It made such a difference.

The unfortunate thing about all this was that his own docs were rubbish. Nobody understood that the tongue tie causes the orofacial distortion which is the root of the problem. I had to seek out experts who could help.

There are pics on my profile OP if any of this is ringing any bells with you.

I have a 9yo who quite often still co-sleeps with me or DH. He has terrible nightmares and anxiety, and it's just easier if one of us sleeps in the same room as him. Some nights he wakes up many times crying.

I'm not a soft touch with bad sleepers. My 2yo I sleep trained perfectly successfully, but there really wasn't any good reason for her waking up. She has slept through every night since then (she's now 11).

OP it sounds as if maybe you are thinking you want him in your room with you, and that could solve the sleeping problem maybe. So, why not just do that? There is no "should". With my 2 DCs I had them in cot at the side of my bed when they were very little, and then in their little beds in our room. Worked for me, it was what I wanted to do.

Yes - please stop the battle, you're a tired mum already you don't need any more angst. & as you say, if the sleeping in with you doesn't work then at that stage you can look at other solutions

We just crash in anyone's bed in my house, all mine co-slept and non of them would sleep at 7pm, more like 9. Sometimes youngest dd comes in with me, sometimes she goes in with her sis and sometimes she tells me shes a big girl and goes in her room. She will go in with her sisters sometimes if they let her. 2 of them are asleep in my double bed so i will have to sleep in one of theirs. I gave them a room each but they still end up somewhere else. The other night they made a den and slept in it for 2 days. It just depends if its a problem, my mam used to make us go between 6.30 an 7 and i hated it, would lie awake bored for ages, try and sneak out but get shouted at, and i used to have horrible dream. I think i must be like this because of that, i just let them go where they want.

-is he napping? If so it's time for it to go

-do you have a consistent calm down routine? Warm bath, pjs, stories....

-Is he getting enough fresh air and exercise during the day?

-I think 7:30pm is fine as long as he's not napping and is getting exercise

-it helps my son to sometimes fall asleep looking at a book by flashlight if he's a bit wound up

-are you turning all screens off well in advance of bedtime?

-is he afraid of the dark? we've experimented with different nightlights which seems to have helped us

-can he sleep with you instead of making it an issue at 3:00am?

-what does he say is the issue?

-okay, now I'll admit what I do with my poor sleeper.....he wakes up, I pull out a fold up mattress next to his bed and I go back to sleep. He can be awake or not but I at least I am asleep and he feels comforted by my presence. Some may judge, but this really worked for us and I'm happy to say that ours sleeps on his own, in his own bed 98% of the time now at 4.5yrs. if he goes through a bout of bad sleep...I pull my cot out and after one or two nights now - he's back on track. I think sometimes you just need to give them what they need so they can feel secure moving on instead of making it a battle of wills.

I've never had this so I'm probably not much help. I'd probably tell him to come into bed with me when he wakes up, or co-sleeping looks lovely and cosy. My little bugger just wouldn't go to sleep if I did that!

mawbroon thanks for that! DD has grade 4 upper lip tie and posterior tongue tie- her tongue and lip do not lift as far as in your photos. Her palate is very similar looking, and her bottom teeth are turning inwards. She is a poor sleeper, she is 2 and rarely sleeps through the night.

How did you get your DS assessed and treated? I remember it was a nightmare getting DD assessed as a baby, even though she couldn't feed properly, I eventually got the ties confirmed but nothing was done for her as they felt she'd grow out of them.

If people in RL are horrified then lie! I found with some friends and family that it was better just not to talk about things they might find controversial, or skip over it and change the subject (it was usually about when I would stop breastfeeding! Max I did was 14 months, but it seemed a real issue for my IL's!)

if you speak to your doctor they may prescribe him melatonin.
Both of my boys are prescribed this

Just co sleep one way or another.

Your DS must be tired too.

You are not a shit mother.

You aren't shit. My eledest was the same and came into our bed most nights till she was about 5. Now at 11, she doesn't.

Ds wasn't a great sleeper, but absolutely hates sleeping in our bed. Even when small (he is now 4). So we don't do it with him as its just as bad. He wakes up once or twice now. It just takes a few minutes to get him back to sleep. Tbh, I would let him in your bed. He will eventually just stop getting in when he is older.

My two eldest boys didn't sleep. They just wanted to be with us. In the end we decided that we needed sleep and bought a very large bed.

We all slept, my youngest always liked his own bed.

They are now all young men very grounded and can't get them out of their beds!

But I do remember very clearly feeling that I was the worst mother in the world. Especially allowing them to sleep in our bed which goes against the grain. I don't regret it and have lovely memories of snuggles.

You are a great mum x