the nhs has failed as the uk has one of the lowest life expectancy in western Europe and is one of the richest countries

[ljwales]

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

Apparently the life expectancy for women is going down rapidly towards the male life expectancy. We have one of the most expensive health care systems in Europe but yet one of the worst levels of health. Aibu to think things really could be better?

I too get the impression you are not at all interested in a 'debate', rather a bit of mud-slinging (unfounded here) at the NHS. How on earth did you make up the "we have one of the most expensive healthcare systems in Europe" nonsense?
And after letting that past...
I thought the NHS did spend a lot on prevention, although it always seems awful advice....it almost seems you have a Tory/UKIP interest in a private heathcare system, and are trying to sew such seeds.

howcanitbe the most effective forms of preventative healthcare are the ones that determine infant and child mortality ie maternity and postnatal care, and vaccinations.

Once those are in place - and the UK does OK but not brilliantly on both counts - then it becomes much more complicated, because of the interactions between lifestyle choices and poverty. The situation is further complicated by the fact that preventative healthcare that focuses on lifestyle changes (diet, alcohol etc) doesn't get short term results so tends to be neglected by government, and because - actually - it's not that easy to change people's lifestyles without making wider changes that are expensive and politically unpalatable (reducing child poverty for eg).

I would guess that a big part of the reason for the UK's declining LE is that very poor people are dying sooner. I think if you looked at the stats in detail you would find that there was little change in the upper half of the income distribution.

Surely our society, culture and economy is much more to blame for a lower life expectancy than the NHS?

Interesting argument too from the OP that the statement that Iceland doesn't have a McDonalds isn't quite true because there used to be some there. Bit like saying saying you can't smoke in workplaces in Britain isn't true because you used to be able to.

Why does poverty cause early death? Especially in a country where healthcare is free? Possibly OP, going on your previous arguments, you have a theory the NHS are bumping them off?

Interesting fact - Iceland used to have Prohibition - until 1935. Is it quite a low alcohol country?

According to a WHO document I just googled, in 2008-2010 Icelanders consumed 7.1 litres of pure alcohol each per year, compared to 10.9 for "WHO European Region." (When divided amongst drinkers rather than the adult population as a whole, it's 10.4 litres each, however there is no comparison figure for that. The country is rated 3 out 5 for alcohol consumption)

www.who.int/substance_abuse/publications/global_alcohol_report/profiles/isl.pdf

I work for nhs and fed up of people leaving the ward having had a leg off to go off site to smoke. Its not nhs fault be personal choice of people. On the flipside i see alot of people in theirs 90s and a few in their 100s. (None smokers, occasional drinker, never been in fast food places usually)

On OP's link, Denmark & Portugal have lower life expectancy (marginally) than UK, while Belgium-Finland-Greece are tied with UK. Are they not western Europe??

Found the equivalent report for the UK, we drink more, 10.9 litres per adult or 13.8 litres per drinker.

www.who.int/substance_abuse/publications/global_alcohol_report/profiles/gbr.pdf

Why does poverty cause early death? No easy answers but

Those living in poverty have higher levels of stress
There are higher levels of smoking in areas of deprivation
Lower standard of housing in areas of deprivation
Lower expectations of living longer and of living well
Different use of NHS services, those living in areas of deprivation don't tend to access preventative services as much
Lower levels of education
Fewer opportunities
Less access to quality food
Comorbidities
Less resilience
More difficult to access centralised health services
Etc etc etc

Life expectancy is increasing? But it's not increasing as quickly in areas of deprivation and the gap in healthy life expectancy is

Widening. Life expectancy in most areas is not 80 years

The life expectancy masks regional variations.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-25231081

Put your postcode and discover your area. I bet in my city there are areas where people have much higher /lower average expectancies,

"If you are 55-year-old who steps on to the Metro train at a stop in the prosperous suburbs near Newcastle airport, you will have on average the chance of having a healthy life up to the age of almost 75.

But just eight miles away, in a deprived part of Newcastle, people boarding the Metro at Byker have an average healthy life expectancy of just under 64. "

Got nothing to do with the NHS - but politically, you could look at parties which want to tackle the social divide and don't make people depend on food banks, struggle to heat their homes etc etc

Apologies, le for men is now over 80. I'm more au fait with the Scottish situation, scot pho is a useful resource. www.scotpho.org.uk/population-dynamics/healthy-life-expectancy/key-points

In my city there's a 14 year difference in le in areas less than 1 mile apart.

I think people would be healthier with a light touch NHS, the current system just encourages people to abuse their body and expect the tax payers to fix them back up when it goes wrong.

There would be far less violence if people had to pay to be stitched back up and an increase in healthcare insurance! We should be more French, they always come out on top and my ex never used the NHS even though he paid UK tax just because back home on holidays he could get referred to a specialist so quickly.

The Mediterranean diet isn't the only healthy one. Like the Japanese Icelanders eat a lot of fish and fresh fruit and veg and not much processed food. They eat a lot less red meat than we do as it's very very expensive. They also eat a lot of Skyr which is a low fat superfood dairy product. Their diet is definitely not comparable to ours. More importantly though it is one of the most socially equal countries in the world with very little gap between the richest and the poorest.

ginmakesitallok I was just going to say the same about my city (maybe we live in the same one!)

Life expectancy here for an adult male is consistently over ten years higher in one ward in the city (house prices averaging 1m+) than the one next door (large and very poor council estate).

This is shocking in a rich country, no? Life expectancy correlates very highly with inequality. And the UK is more unequal than most other European countries.

As others have said above, there are clearly reasons to do with lifestyle factors, eg. smoking/food and so on. But it's also clear that a poorer economic situation contributes a lot too, and those are not choices (poorer housing, less good access to healthcare, stress caused by few life choices and poor working conditions and so on).

It should not be news to anyone that poverty contributes to a lower life expectancy.

Yet politicians rarely seem to address these fundamental real social issues. Yes, the NHS is important - but it's far far far more important to address the issues of why people need the NHS and to tackle those issues before the need for the NHS is needed.

People who have better lifestyles and people who are not worried about or in poverty are less likely to need the NHS for many things. If we were to tackle those issues, then the NHS would be able to concentrate on other things. Such as an ageing population who get diseases associated with being old.

But that would require politicians who understand exactly what poverty is, the issues of poverty and the needs of people. Which is probably not a party run by millionaires who went to public school.

(Wail) I can't find any postcode calculator findy thing (BBC link or elsewhere), not visible when I click links.

Does anyone actually have any empirical evidence to support the line that the UK is more inequal than other western european countries? Because I've lived in a few different countries in the west, and none of them have been any different to the UK in terms of inequality. If anything, the UK has been much more equal in many respects.

The one thing that does always strike me about the UK is how much people complain though.

It irritates me no end when people only seem to see two different types of healthcare - the NHS or the US system. It's so closed minded it's not even funny. Personally I think the NHS is a fantastic ideal, but totally unsustainable in this day and age. It's like a never ending black hole for money.

Personally I think the UK should move towards replicating the Dutch system, which has been noted as one of the best health care systems in the world. However, I think contraception and sexual health clinics should remain free of charge considering UK attitudes to sexual health are in the dark ages.

Looking at some of the great links provided here:

• NHS is free at point of use
• NHS is cheaper than most OECD countries (which aren't free at point of use)
• NHS is often ranked as the best healthcare provider

The NHS is delivering this while:

• Successive governments re-organise, outsource, burden with PFI and cut budgets
• Medical advances and treatments are developed at higher costs to prolong or extend expectancy
• Social care services have been slashed making the NHS the last resort to carry the burden
• Population numbers have grown
• Incidence of complex conditions have grown: cancer, diabetes, dementia, etc
• Opportunities for medical staff to earn more in the private sector grows strongly, but many still don't do it because they believe in the public good (i.e. they're not in it to make a fortune)

Frankly, anyone taking a pop at the NHS should be asked to live in the US for a few years and dare to get unwell without employers healthcare insurance.

[gets of high horse in a huff and walks away]

I think it's quite well known that the UK is one of the most unequal societies. If you look at the income distribution, we don't rank well.