Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Priority admissions to grammar for free school meals

999 replies

polycomfort · 02/04/2015 14:58

I'm pretty much not a person to start hand-wringing over low income families getting breaks. Happy for people less fortunate to get the odd leg up. Fine.

But I'm really angry to have just read that the local grammar school has just started giving priority admission to children claiming free school meals. I understand they get an extra £900 per child so I get that there is probably a financial benefit for the schools themselves. But I've been practicing with my daughter every evening (can't afford a tutor) using books I've bought cheap on Amazon and was thinking she might be just about good to go after lots of effort from both of us and now I'm just thinking what's the point? There are 20 applications per space as it is, and now just because I'm not poor she has even less of a chance. We don't have a high income but I work full time and so she doesn't get free school meals. For my efforts I may end up having to send my really rather bright daughter to the crappy (and it is crap) local comp even though she may be brighter than a child whose parent doesn't bust a gut to work every day of the week.

I don't think it's okay for grammar schools to be crammed full of wealthy kids who could go to private school, but couldn't they do a household income cut off rather than using a free school meal as the criteria? Then all the kids who can't afford to go to private school could be assessed for grammar school. I don't see why kids from the middle income should be penalised.

OP posts:
MrsJamin · 02/04/2015 18:19

We have super-selective grammars in Reading and I hate hate hate the system. I know so many very bright children who did not get in and see hoardes of kids traipsing in by train (i.e. who live a long way away) who must have left the house before 7am to get to the grammars. It's a disgusting system and should be scrapped entirely IMHO. All children should get to go to good schools, period. There should be no streaming at a heavily-tutored exam at the age of 10.

oddfodd · 02/04/2015 18:20

The system as it stands favours the less bright children whose parents can throw money at the situation. I'm all for redressing the balance.

smokepole · 02/04/2015 18:20

DD2 Argh!

PolterGoose · 02/04/2015 18:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BeyondRepair · 02/04/2015 18:23

One report suggested that, at some grammar schools, over 25% of all new pupils came from private prep schools. They are trying to do something to make things fairer for poorer students but they have to work within the system that exits not set their own

one way to work in the system is to actually prepare dc for the 11= like private preps already do, make sure they get levels in maths etc they need, do exam techniques mocks etc

BeyondRepair · 02/04/2015 18:26

Anyway op I see your point, dc from private schools, and wealthy parents now dc from poorest families will all have advantage over border line MC dc, whose parents cannot afford tutors, or prep schools.

HighwayDragon · 02/04/2015 18:27

Surely if your daughter was bright enough then she will succeed wherever she is?

smokepole · 02/04/2015 18:30

Hakulyt. Whether you believe that grammar schools should exist or not, should have no bearing on 'state schools' helping their most able pupils go to a grammar school.

Why should a school 'not be able' to give a child help in gaining access to the most appropriate school for them ?.

smokepole · 02/04/2015 18:33

DD1 was denied this chance of a grammar school by a 'pillock' of a headmaster who thought grammar schools were ' the equivelent of the death penalty' so he actively refused to help with an appeal ...

Hakluyt · 02/04/2015 18:34

People focus too much on tutoring. It's one point, but the 11+ also discriminates in favour of children brought up in families that who have the time, knowledge and inclination to understand the system. Families where school and reading are valued and prioritised. Families where there is leisure and space and physical and emotional energy to focus on education. Usually, but not exclusively, educated, middle class families.

Superexcited · 02/04/2015 18:35

superexcited did your DS go to GS? Confused by your post.

No, he went to an independent on a full bursary. He was one of the kids disadvantaged by both finances and having a disabled person at home who he helps to care for. But he got his offer of a place based purely on merit bnd hard work as the school didn't have priority for disadvantaged children (other than LAC). We turned down the offer he received from the most selective state grammar in the region and I would hope that some other bright deserving child got the place at the grammar. The independent was his number one choice of school. Maybe somebody who applied and didn't get a bursary will complain about my son being given a place on a bursary because we are that bit poorer / my son scored that bit higher on the entrance test.

UAprilFool · 02/04/2015 18:37

The sooner grammar schools are abolished the better. They are outdated. All schools should cater to all levels of academic ability.

Grammar schools premote inequality.

PtolemysNeedle · 02/04/2015 18:40

Let me try putting it this way. Take four hypothetical children. All from the same state school, all equally bright, all score the same on their 11+ paper.

Child A - a year before 11+ day, Dad dies. Until then, had been well suported by motivated, engaged parents, but since the death the remaining parent hasn't coped well and hasn't give as much support as she would have done otherwise. Family is ok financially thanks to insurance polices and pension payouts.

Child B - a year before 11+ day, parents separated. The split was amicable and child B sees the NRP regularly, and both parents are supportive of education. The RP went on benefits temporarily so was eligible for FSMs, but now has a job and no longer gets FSMs.

Child C - from a traveller family. Both parents have low levels of literacy, and numeracy but want their child to do well and have ensured that their child is at school every day and has done what they can to help their child's education, although that has been very little.

Child D - from a family with a fairly low income because of a siblings disability, but not low enough to qualify for FSMs as one parent works full time. Home life is a struggle because of the needs of the disabled child and Child D sometimes has to help with caring or household things.

So, is it really fair that child B is allowed to get a lower score on test day thereby getting a much sought after place at the grammar school when the other three miss out because they are expected to get a higher score?

I realise this exact situation is unlikely, but if this is what schools are doing then the fact is that there will be children in difficult situations who don't get offered places in favour of FSM children who could easily be better off overall. And I just don't think rules enforced by government organisation should be doing that.

It might cost more money and effort to provide tutoring for all that want it, but it has to be a better way than fiddling with results.

BeyondRepair · 02/04/2015 18:43

polter

Child C: state school, disrupted through constant moves, difficult home life, hard to even sit and read a book at home, parents struggling with money and health problems, child self motivated but no access to resources to study 11+ in advance

This child is also being dis advantaged by the school he/she attends because the state school should provide access to resources to study.

Superexcited · 02/04/2015 18:44

Those arguing about the unfairness of it all: do you also disagree with universities having positive discrimination policies so that children from state schools have higher chances of being offered a place than pupils from private schools with the same A level results?

BeyondRepair · 02/04/2015 18:45

The sooner grammar schools are abolished the better. They are outdated. All schools should cater to all levels of academic ability

^ Rather like wanting to abolish all cars and force us onto a public transport system, fine if the schools that exist can prove they can educate all levels of student, which at present, many do not.

Beloved72 · 02/04/2015 18:48

Why do children who are succeeding academically FOR WHATEVER REASON need special resources, better teachers and better schools than children who are struggling to achieve?

Why do bright children need to be separated from their peers in separate institutions, when a comprehensive school is able to set for all subjects, so that bright children can be educated alongside others achieving at the same level?

titchy · 02/04/2015 18:50

Ptolemy the vast vast vast majority of FSM kids are nothing like child B.

BeyondRepair · 02/04/2015 18:50

Leaving the really demotivated/ unsupported kids behind

and whose job is it, to be motivating these dc and supporting them?

Beloved72 · 02/04/2015 18:53

"fine if the schools that exist can prove they can educate all levels of student, which at present, many do not."

They can't do it if they don't have enough very bright and well supported children to form top sets in the first place, and if there isn't demand from the student body for the sort of extra curricula clubs and subjects popular among the highest achieving children.

tiggytape · 02/04/2015 18:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Superexcited · 02/04/2015 18:58

And is a super selective school which is highly focused on academia and results really going to be the best place for a child who is demotivated and unsupported?
The FSM children applying for places at grammar schools are likely to have some support and motivation and just need a chance (after all in some regions the parents have to submit applications to each grammar school). Being unprepared for the exams due to the parents finances not allowing for tutoring and in some cases parental lack of education meaning that they cannot help prepare the children themselves isn't the same as being demotivated and unsupported. I think those children (the ones that lack finances but have bags of motivation and natural ability) deserve a chance at the grammar school. Grammar schools are supposed to increase social mobility.
I really feel for the children who have bags of motivation and ability but no support at home but those parents are Unlikely to make applications to the grammar school anyway (because they are not supportive).

Beloved72 · 02/04/2015 18:59

"one way to work in the system is to actually prepare dc for the 11= like private preps already do, make sure they get levels in maths etc they need, do exam techniques mocks etc"

Maybe state primaries could also help pupils compete for grammar places on the same terms as children at prep schools by

halving class sizes

and

locking all disruptive and low achieving children in a cupboard for the entire year so as not to slow the pace of learning for the clever kids.

Hmm

The halving of class sizes could be achieved by spending all the pupil premium on boosting the achievements of the most able and successful children so they can pass the 11+, rather than on making sure the strugglers leave primary able to read and write.

BeyondRepair · 02/04/2015 19:01

Maurice

By your reasoning I should have been rejected in favour of someone who was probably not as bright but had parent's supportand therefore had some support and scored higher.

Lovely story, Smile personally I would never want to deny anyone like you a place they deserve but I would have liked your school to expose you to NVR so you had a chance not just because of your background.

BeyondRepair · 02/04/2015 19:10

The simple fact is that many of those parents will be affluent, middle class, and probably professionals/graduates themselves. We can't do anything about that. And why should we? If they want to help and support their child that's their perogative

and thank goodness they help their dc, because it seems state schools dont want to help them Shock and op is helping her dc too...