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Original poster

Priority admissions to grammar for free school meals

999 replies

polycomfort · 02/04/2015 14:58

I'm pretty much not a person to start hand-wringing over low income families getting breaks. Happy for people less fortunate to get the odd leg up. Fine.

But I'm really angry to have just read that the local grammar school has just started giving priority admission to children claiming free school meals. I understand they get an extra £900 per child so I get that there is probably a financial benefit for the schools themselves. But I've been practicing with my daughter every evening (can't afford a tutor) using books I've bought cheap on Amazon and was thinking she might be just about good to go after lots of effort from both of us and now I'm just thinking what's the point? There are 20 applications per space as it is, and now just because I'm not poor she has even less of a chance. We don't have a high income but I work full time and so she doesn't get free school meals. For my efforts I may end up having to send my really rather bright daughter to the crappy (and it is crap) local comp even though she may be brighter than a child whose parent doesn't bust a gut to work every day of the week.

I don't think it's okay for grammar schools to be crammed full of wealthy kids who could go to private school, but couldn't they do a household income cut off rather than using a free school meal as the criteria? Then all the kids who can't afford to go to private school could be assessed for grammar school. I don't see why kids from the middle income should be penalised.

OP posts:
Hakluyt · 05/04/2015 11:35

"Most of us in the private system we tend to ensure our children realise any school they might get to would be fine." Good. Presumably that means that your child doesn't get commiserated with/congratulated by neighbours and people in shops when the results come out? Their year 6 class doesn't divide along pass/fail lines on results day? Nobody says "never mind- I'm sure you'll be fine-I've heard the sport is excellent" .....and so on and so on while you are choosing between 6 equal but different schools?

BeyondRepair · 05/04/2015 11:37
  • PtolemysNeedle Sun 05-Apr-15 10:31:13

I agree with this post and of course dc at private are not immune to life's problems either but at least they have the hopefully, solid education and good school to help them through with their grades and potential being taken care of.

BeyondRepair · 05/04/2015 11:38

Presumably that means that your child doesn't get commiserated with/congratulated by neighbours and people in shops when the results come out? Their year 6 class doesn't divide along pass/fail lines on results day?

Confused

Any child with a sense of self worth would be fine. Only in families where they have not played their hand well will think something has gone wrong.

BeyondRepair · 05/04/2015 11:40

Fantastic comps exist and some people who live near a superselective and also a decent comp don't bother with the 11+ at all (even if their child is extremely academic). There is no stress for them as their default option is great

Yes exaclty there would be no stress if the alternatives were any good which as we see from MN many are not good and in fact dire.

Hakluyt · 05/04/2015 11:43

"Surely all state primaries should be helping all their children to the best of their potential ". Since when did spending hours practicing NVR and VR "helping all children to the best of their potential"?

Marynary · 05/04/2015 11:47

Children who have been to a prep school do have an advantage in the exams as prep schools spend a lot of time teaching them to pass entrance exams usually for private secondary schools but also for grammar schools. Where we live state schools are not allowed help the children with any preparation for the exam (or even talk about it). The only children who are encouraged at all are PP children.

Having said, I think that children from prep schools will usually go on to private secondary schools rather than state grammars.

Marynary · 05/04/2015 12:02

Actually, I take that back. I have just looked on the website of a local prep school and half of their school leavers last year went onto a state grammar school.

PtolemysNeedle · 05/04/2015 12:10

Again Hak, what you are complaining about is because of the attitudes of adults, not because of the existence of grammar schools.

Hakluyt · 05/04/2015 12:41

"Again Hak, what you are complaining about is because of the attitudes of adults, not because of the existence of grammar schools."

No. I am complaining about a system that divides children into successes or failures at the age of 10.

BeyondRepair · 05/04/2015 12:45

Since when did spending hours practicing NVR and VR "helping all children to the best of their potential"

Since when did I mention NVR and VR?

Hakluyt · 05/04/2015 12:45

"Any child with a sense of self worth would be fine. Only in families where they have not played their hand well will think something has gone wrong"

Yeah, right. There speaks somebody who has not actually experienced this. Or has only experienced being in the "pass bubble".

PtolemysNeedle · 05/04/2015 12:46

But it's not the system that divides them into successes or failures. The system just determines which school they will go to.

If you, or the people around you consider that the results of a test mean that a child is either a success or a failure at ten or eleven years old (as shown by your examples of people who congratulate or commiserate) then that's a problem that is caused by the attitudes of adults.

BeyondRepair · 05/04/2015 12:46

No. I am complaining about a system that divides children into successes or failures at the age of 10

Confused
Hakluyt · 05/04/2015 12:47

"Since when did spending hours practicing NVR and VR "helping all children to the best of their potential"

Since when did I mention NVR and VR?"

I thought one of the discussions on this thread was primary schools failing to prepare children for the 11+........

BeyondRepair · 05/04/2015 12:47

Plenty of experience thanks H.

BeyondRepair · 05/04/2015 12:48

Yes and one the main reasons parents of state primaries has to tutor is because they no not cover enough curriculum needed.

Covering actual curriculum and learning is key, NVR and VR is fluff you need to be acquainted with.

BeyondRepair · 05/04/2015 12:52

Children who have been to a prep school do have an advantage in the exams as prep schools spend a lot of time teaching them to pass entrance exams usually for private secondary schools but also for grammar schools

Yes, of course its what parents are paying for.

Teaching to pass exams is also of course part of teaching, and the dc learn!

Hakluyt · 05/04/2015 12:54

"e primaries has to tutor is because they no not cover enough curriculum needed.

Covering actual curriculum and learning is key, NVR and VR is fluff you need to be acquainted with."

Most 11+ exams for state grammar schools consist of NVR and/or VR and/or Maths. The only "curriculum" subject is maths- which is 4a/5.

Hakluyt · 05/04/2015 12:56

"No. I am complaining about a system that divides children into successes or failures at the age of 10

confused"

Why the confused face?

Beloved72 · 05/04/2015 14:12

"well many schools have this marvelous opportunity now though ( due to small no's of grammars) and they are not able to stretch their brighter pupils."

I have made the point before - schools are learning communities and if they are lacking a representative intake of high achieving children they will struggle to adequately educate those they do have.

The answer is to make all schools more rather than less exclusive and stop subsidising private schools through tax concessions - which will hopefully mean fewer bursaries.

I know people with gifted kids will whine about their child being disadvantaged, but really, we shouldn't support and perpetuate a schooling system which prioritises the needs of a successful and talented (and usually m/c) minority over the needs of the rest, particularly if the aim is to raise overall achievement and have a more meritocratic society.

Beloved72 · 05/04/2015 14:12

More 'inclusive' not 'exclusive'!

smokepole · 05/04/2015 14:18

I have been in both camps pass/fail thoughout my life. This means I think bright children should be in grammar schools. However, we need to make sure the'correct' children are in selective education regardless of background.

The grammar school system is 70% right as oppossed to the Comprehensive system being50% correct. The problem is how can we make selective education 90% correct in selecting the right pupils. (bearing in mind 100% is impossible).

On a side issue I watched Challenge TV this morning showing 'Knightmare' from the early 90s . Has anybody seen a more (Middle Class) grammar/private school targeted kids television programe. It is also evident that certain kids were overerepresented in the 1990s on television and no doubt are the parents of children attending the same schools today.

This means that what we are questioning here about chances of social mobilty is no different than it was in 70s/80s or 90s and is not a new phenomena.

Hakluyt · 05/04/2015 14:19

I find it fascinating that grammar supporters don't mind at all about their children benefitting from an inherently unfair system, and basically tell everyone else that they should just deal with it, but the minute there is any attempt to redress the balance, or something happens which they think is unfair to them all hell breaks loose!

It is extraordinarily unseemly to quibble over a couple of bright disadvantaged children getting a miniscule leg up.........

Marynary · 05/04/2015 14:33

It is extraordinarily unseemly to quibble over a couple of bright disadvantaged children getting a miniscule leg up.........

I don't think people are quibbling about whether it is a bad thing for genuinely disadvantaged children to get a "leg up". The issue is that people are sceptical about whether those can take advantage of the new system will genuinely have been disavantaged (e.g. poor performing primary school, lack of parental support) or just those who have been on FSM for a short time in recent years due to marriage breakup/jshort term job loss etc.

PtolemysNeedle · 05/04/2015 14:35

My GS educated child isn't benefitting from an inherently unfair system, he's benefitting from a school that can cater for his needs, as all children should. It's it not our fault that the system is the way it is, but we still have to work within it.

And as a grammar supporter, I can see things that are unfair about it and I can see things that could be done to improve that, I just don't think giving extra points to certain types of disadvantaged children is the answer.

Either way, you don't solve the problem of unfairness by creating more unfairness. That just seems to me to be plain stupid.

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