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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To think racism is unacceptable however it is put across...

55 replies

ThreeMoreDaysTillFriday · 31/03/2015 17:13

It seems to be a running trend that racist jokes in my office are ok. I've heard conversations saying it's ok because it's a joke and that anyone offended is too stupid to realise that it actually funny

My problem is how to handle it. Some of these "jokes" are coming from the owner (very small company) and there is nobody to actually complain to.

Odd that these "jokes" never happened when we had people of different races in the company but now we don't it's happening on a daily basis.

Aside from telling them that they are racist and the idiots I don't know what else I can do.

OP posts:

DoraGora · 31/03/2015 23:18

I admire the convictions of this forum (and I agree with them). But, in practical terms I refer to the OP

If you work with Neandertals and they employ you, in a small business, what can you do about it? A suggestion has been made that you can respond in an awkward manner about any Neandertal jokes.

That might be a solution. (Personally, I think it's a bad solution, making yourself unpopular.) A better solution is simply to quit.

Arsenic · 31/03/2015 23:18

Spanish that is a very odd attitude.

cremedecacao · 31/03/2015 23:18

Do you mean 'The Office' style humour? i.e saying something totally unacceptable to make people cringe? I.e it is funny because the idea of someone even thinking it is so totally ridiculous it becomes a joke itself?

Some of the humour plays on stereotypes. For example it is obviously ridiculous to think that all black people are good runners. Most intelligent and sane people know this. A person with this style of humour might play on this stereotype in a way that mocks a racist person who actually believes this stereotype to be true. In no way does this mean the person is racist themselves. I don't mind this style of humour, I find it can be a clever way to remind ourselves of how utterly ridiculous these stereotypes are in the first place.

A lot of my friends enjoy this sort of humour and I know that NONE of them are racist/homophobic/whatever. Not all of them are white, if it makes any difference.

People do have to be careful about what they say in public though as I worry people might think they actually mean it, rather than taking the micky out of racists/homophobes!

Does this offer an explanation at all?

cremedecacao · 31/03/2015 23:21

Of course I do not refer to outright racist jokes told by people who are racist OR racist names being used, EVER. This is not the same thing at all.

DoraGora · 31/03/2015 23:25

cremedec, I very much doubt that this conversation has anything to do with inverted racism. I think it's about overt racism, on a small scale, and the ability/inability to do anything about it locally.

OrlandoWoolf · 31/03/2015 23:25

A lot of my friends enjoy this sort of humour and I know that NONE of them are racist/homophobic/whatever. Not all of them are white, if it makes any difference

I don't really see how people who do not belong to a group making jokes about a stereotype linked to a group is appropriate. Maybe they're not racist / homophobic / transphobic but it's part of the same issue. Making jokes about a group you don't belong to and playing on a stereotype.

Mummyinamask · 31/03/2015 23:26

Ime people do not like confrontation. I am lucky to work in a fairly 'liberal' environment so I've never heard a racist joke (but one of my childhood memories is my father standing up against a relative telling a racist joke, in the relatives home) but I've hard enough sexist claptrap top last me a lifetime. I usually just tell them straight it's not acceptable and to not let me hear them say it again. Jokey tone if it's your superior. The message still lands.
Good luck op. Don't let these racist arseholes dictate your working environment.
What's that joke that Desmond tutu makes about racists? Something about nelson Mandela being caught in a boat in a storm so he gets out and walks to the shore. Next day, headline in Afrikaans newspaper 'Nelson Mandela can't swim'.

That delivers the message!

soontobemumofthree · 31/03/2015 23:27

YANBU it is unacceptable. They know it as they avoid doing it with the target of their 'jokes'. Difficult to confront when it is a small workplace and the boss is involved. Normally I'd say have a word with the boss.

IFinishedTheBiscuits · 31/03/2015 23:27

I think it also depends on the 'jokes' as well though. For example jokes about Australians/ Irish /French etc tend to be a reciprocal thing (a long history of ribbing on both sides, Whingeing Poms etc), but also with a kind of mutual respect and equality? Whereas some racist jokes come from a much darker place and it's these I'd worry about more.

Arsenic · 31/03/2015 23:27

In that scenario/humour the joke would be 'about' the bigot Orlando not about the group mocked by the bigot. It's delicate ground though and dicey to do in an office.

DoraGora · 31/03/2015 23:30

Telling your family off isn't the same thing. You can't get a new family. Ultimately, (although it involves race and racism) the OP's problem is really about power and the lack of it. (In many ways racism is a side issue.)

cremedecacao · 31/03/2015 23:32

Arsenic agreed people need to always be careful with any sort of humour at work- know your audience!!

Here is an interesting link, interesting comments too:

www.theguardian.com/culture/tvandradioblog/2007/nov/20/catchofthedayisironicrac

IFinishedTheBiscuits · 31/03/2015 23:33

Ricky Gervais is very good at the ironic humour. You think he's being a total git then realise he's taking the piss out of total gits.

cremedecacao · 31/03/2015 23:35

Also, I find it very easy to tell the difference between someone who is poking fun at racism (because being racist is so utterly ridiculous) and someone who IS racist. If their jokes are making you uncomfortable, then possibly it is the latter and you should speak to your boss.

IFinishedTheBiscuits · 31/03/2015 23:37

And ChowNow, good for you. That was disgusting behaviour from your colleague.

DoraGora · 31/03/2015 23:38

cremdedecacoa, I think the boss is the racist.

Kewcumber · 31/03/2015 23:41

There is no duty, moral or otherwise, to stand up against racism

Blimey you have a thin grasp of the meaning of "moral" Dora

OP - can you just say to every racist joke "I don't think thats funny" and leave it at that. Repeat ad nauseam.

Putting up and shutting up about something you know is wrong chips away at the essence of who you are so I think to maintain your own self respect you need to make some kind of statement that you are not part of that gang, however restrained. It's those pesky morals that Dora doesn't understand getting in the way!

limitedperiodonly · 31/03/2015 23:43

they can ask them to explain the joke. "I don't get it" - then watch as the person explains their stereotype of someone. "So you're saying that all people like that behave this way".

That would be admirable but I'm not sure I'd be that brave in a small company where the employer espoused those views and where my employment status was vulnerable.

DoraGora · 31/03/2015 23:47

Maybe, Kewcumber. Perhaps I do. But, I wouldn't have said that French people, under the Nazis had a moral duty to join the Resistance, any more than I'm saying employees have one to oppose racist bosses.

Brave people can make targets of themselves, and I hope they do. But, normal people simply keep their heads down.

I'm not sure that there is a moral imperative to be brave. We'd all have to ask Socrates about that one.

Stokes · 31/03/2015 23:58

It's tough in work, especially when the boss is involved. Could you wait until someone says something when the boss is in the room but not in the conversation, so you're not challenging him directly, but maybe planting a seed? Something also "lighthearted": " jeez lads, getting a bit much in here today! Would love to see your face if you turned around and X was standing behind you! Cringe! ".

Original poster

ThreeMoreDaysTillFriday · 01/04/2015 07:43

Dora - why should I be forced to leave my job which I've worked bloody hard to get, that supports myself and my daughter and that I've managed to work all childcare arrangements around because some idiot can't keep their ignorance at bay for 8 hours a day?

It has not gone unnoticed that I don't join in, walk away etc. I've been asked if I've not understood a joke to which my response is always the same. "I understood what you said" and to continue whatever I'm doing.

There are others whom are of the same attitude and opinion as me but they also feel that the moment it's said isn't always the right time to challenge.

If it stops today I would leave it lie. As this is unlikely I will raise it. I like the suggestion of asking them to explain the "joke". Let them break down what a racist idiot they are and comment (innocently) that's it's racist and see how they squirm. May try this today.

I should add. There have also been rape "jokes" but they are a lot less frequent (3 in a year maybe). The "humour" in that place is dog rough.

OP posts:

Kewcumber · 01/04/2015 11:29

Morals don't rely on being brave - there's a bit gap between doing nothing and saying nothing and joining the resistance which is pretty much Threemoredays question I believe. How far between doing nothing and joining the resistance will make her point and hopefully change things without losing her job.

Small acts added up can be a big push in the right direction and maybe if she takes the "explain to me why thats funny" line (if she feels able to) then maybe it will attract others to the radical idea that you have to sit and listen to this crap at work.

Morals and bravery are not at all the same thing I'm sure there were many brave Nazis and many Brits without morals during WW2

So no I agree with you that there is no moral imperative to be brave. I do however think that you have a responsibility to your own mental health to be true to your own beliefs and if you believe that racism is wrong and shouldn't be tolerated then you should behave as if you believe that. If you don't act what you believe then I'd question whether you believe it in any meaningful sense of the word.

I have no idea what Socrates would have to say about my idea of morality or bravery but I'm pretty sure he wasn't the only person ever to have a good or honorable idea so I'm happy with my interpretation regardless of what he might have said.

Kewcumber · 01/04/2015 11:30

the radical idea that you don't have to sit and listen to this crap at work.

OrlandoWoolf · 01/04/2015 11:33

This quote is apt:

"The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing"

Bit sexist - and evil is not the right word. But the idea still stands.

BabyGanoush · 01/04/2015 11:46

Orlando, yes that quote is from the 18th century! It still stands.

You can stand up, in a small way. By not laughing, by walking away, by rolling your eyes, by challenging them on it (if you are feeling brave).

I find it very heartening that lots of children and teenagers are very clued up on the issues of racism, and are happy to pull up the older generation on jokes that are really not o.k.

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