to be mortified by 4 year old sons behaviour :-(

[Lottie10000]

Cut a long story short my son is 4 1/2 and has always been " boisterous "
We've gone through stages of pure aggression directed mainly at other children in parks / soft play places although occasionally also to me and his dad.
We have used all sorts of methods from positive parenting to time out to removing toys to taking straight home, the other discipline method we've never used is smacking as we don't want to plus we have really tried to enforce that hitting is wrong in any sense so would hate to be a hypocrite.
More recently it hasn't been unprovoked attacks as such, more if a kid hits him he is unable to walk away and tell me etc, or if a child says something nasty he lashes out.
Never does it at pre school, I've even asked him why not and he replies " the teacher would tell me off " so he does know right / wrong although I have no idea why that's enough to deter him yet I'm not.
I'm not a softy parent who sees no wrong in her own children and unlike some other friends I have I don't buy into " boys will be boys " and all this nonsense, I watch my children and correct them when they need it.
Yesterday we had been to a farm in the morning, he had made friends to play with there and had a lovely time and later in the afternoon we had met my mum for lunch and soft play.
All going well until I saw my son ( he didn't think I could see as the frame is large ) punching this kid ( same sort of age ) over and over again. By the time I climbed the frame he must have hit him 6/7 times. The child wasn't crying and was attempting to hit back but what made me really upset but as I was running over I could see the kid trying to stand up and just as he did my son knocked him down again.
I felt sick, my son is 4 1/2, just a child but it was awful to watch.
I found the parent and apologised, she was very much like " boys will be boys I'm surprised mine didn't whack him back " and we immediately left which I hate doing as my 3 year old who rarely does anything wrong then also has to be dragged out of places but I felt it was the only option.
He has lost the new football kit an boots for practice he had today and he isn't going, he's been told he can go next week if he behaves this week.
He's been on the recieving end more than once being punched in the face by older bigger kids whilst he cried trying to protect his face :( and I've been the mother shouting for the mother of this uncontrollable child attacking mine, so why he thinks it's okay is beyond me.
Maybe he's seen it too much in these places but at 4 1/2 I thought he would know better by now.
Has anyone else dealt with this?

Ah, I see I am miles behind the thread as usual!

OP could you try making him sit out while your 3yo still plays? He can see exactly what he missing as a consequence of his own actions and the 3yo can still enjoy the activity.

I think this is a good idea OP. When you see unwanted behaviour, take him by the hand to a place near you and tell him in a low, calm tone 'We do not hit. You must sit here now for four minutes.'

This is time out but it has to be done properly. Don't give him any more attention, don't look at him or talk to him. If he moves away, put him back there. (You might need to practice this at home a few times until he understands that he has to stay there).

At the end of four minutes compliance (ie don't start the time until he co-operates) tell him again in a low, firm voice 'I put you here because you hit. We do not hit. I want you to say sorry'. When he says sorry, don't make a big fuss over it (saying sorry is normal, expected behaviour after all, not some miraculous breakthrough) and let him go and play.

Do this every single time, without fail and he will learn.

His own answer was that he doesn't do it at school as he would get told off. He obviously doesn't feel there are any consequences at home... I think you need to up the ante a bit.

I have found that discussing things 'after the event' never made a scrap of difference.
However a good pep talk before can work wonders. Eg calmly saying on the way ' I don't want to see any pushing, for these reasons, if someone pushes you - do this, this is what will happen if you manage it/don't manage it etc'

Thank you again for your responses
I will try that tomorrow at the party
And I will order that book as all the positive parenting methods didn't seem to work for him which was a shame as ideally I would have liked that route.
Today we stopped in the park and he found a large stick which another child attempted to take off him.
He said " no " but the child continued.
He looked over at me as if to say okay help me mum as I don't know what to do now without lashing out and I told him to say no again and go and play somewhere else if the boy doesn't want to play nicely together. He did just that and off the boy went to find his own stick.
Maybe we are getting somewhere :-)

Keep him at home until he he can behave been tired is no excuse.

That's quite hard to do when I have a daughter as well that needs occupying.

You daughter could support your argument. She may get fed up and tell him to behave? Assuming she is old enough.

Sounds like he sees you as a soft touch

The daughter is only 3, a year younger than the boy so, no, she could not do that.

I think you are right OP, your dd should not miss out. Maybe you could make trips out a bit shorter so that you, say, go to the park for half an hour instead of an hour. That way you have less time for incidents to occur and more chance of a successful outing.

(Oh, I've nc by the way, I was Fairenuff before but got my Easter hat on at the moment).

A few things. The idea of keeping a 4 year old in is bizzaire. I used to have issues with my DS behaviour in shops. I found explaining my expectations before going in helped.

He also does sound very busy every day between preschool and all the activities. I think he does need to learn to slow down a bit.

I also support the idea that he does see his sibling playing while he has to sit out. .

I had some problems with DD and inappropriate behaviour at this age, and I found the school to be wonderfully supportive of this. I spoke with the well being officer about my worries, and we arranged to sit down with her teacher and talk about what we could all do together to manage her behaviour. I bought some books to hand in to the teacher each day writing about her behaviour, so we could update each other how she had been at school, then afterschool club, and at home with me. They arranged a parenting class to help with my confidence, and had my DD in regularly for little chats, and she had a good behaviour chart at school too.

She took a lot longer than most to mature and still has her moments at nearly seven, but it does get better.

Thanks, as I said he is wonderfully behaved at pre school so I expect that to continue come school.
Maybe he isn't there enough? He only does 1 full day as we wanted lots of time with him before real school started.
I agree about the soft touch comment, clearly, or this would happen in other places which it doesn't!
I always explain the day ahead and what is expected and he CAN be wonderfully kind and is willing to share anything even a brand new toy with kids in the park, he have his coat to a child who was cold last week and I had to go and ask for it back, he is just very hyperactive in certain environments.
Today we went to a ice cream shop as a treat and my daughter had finished hers ( son didn't know that as he was off in the toilet with his dad ) and it was just resting on the table. He comes back, knocks it off the table with his own one and then jumps all over it.
Then immediately without anything being said got really upset in case his sister still wanted it.
It's like he doesn't think things through at all.