to be mortified by 4 year old sons behaviour :-(

[Lottie10000]

Cut a long story short my son is 4 1/2 and has always been " boisterous "
We've gone through stages of pure aggression directed mainly at other children in parks / soft play places although occasionally also to me and his dad.
We have used all sorts of methods from positive parenting to time out to removing toys to taking straight home, the other discipline method we've never used is smacking as we don't want to plus we have really tried to enforce that hitting is wrong in any sense so would hate to be a hypocrite.
More recently it hasn't been unprovoked attacks as such, more if a kid hits him he is unable to walk away and tell me etc, or if a child says something nasty he lashes out.
Never does it at pre school, I've even asked him why not and he replies " the teacher would tell me off " so he does know right / wrong although I have no idea why that's enough to deter him yet I'm not.
I'm not a softy parent who sees no wrong in her own children and unlike some other friends I have I don't buy into " boys will be boys " and all this nonsense, I watch my children and correct them when they need it.
Yesterday we had been to a farm in the morning, he had made friends to play with there and had a lovely time and later in the afternoon we had met my mum for lunch and soft play.
All going well until I saw my son ( he didn't think I could see as the frame is large ) punching this kid ( same sort of age ) over and over again. By the time I climbed the frame he must have hit him 6/7 times. The child wasn't crying and was attempting to hit back but what made me really upset but as I was running over I could see the kid trying to stand up and just as he did my son knocked him down again.
I felt sick, my son is 4 1/2, just a child but it was awful to watch.
I found the parent and apologised, she was very much like " boys will be boys I'm surprised mine didn't whack him back " and we immediately left which I hate doing as my 3 year old who rarely does anything wrong then also has to be dragged out of places but I felt it was the only option.
He has lost the new football kit an boots for practice he had today and he isn't going, he's been told he can go next week if he behaves this week.
He's been on the recieving end more than once being punched in the face by older bigger kids whilst he cried trying to protect his face :( and I've been the mother shouting for the mother of this uncontrollable child attacking mine, so why he thinks it's okay is beyond me.
Maybe he's seen it too much in these places but at 4 1/2 I thought he would know better by now.
Has anyone else dealt with this?

He may be getting over stimulated in soft play and busy play parks. My ds reacts to being over stimulated by hitting. He has sn but an nt child can become over stimulated as well. I would build quiet periods into the day and avoid soft play when it is busy. Go first or last thing.

That was a horrible incident for you to watch as a mum, but I think you are moving forward because he is able to abide by the pre-school/school rules. The best thing he has on his side is you, his mum, who was clearly upset for the other child and whilst you want to support your son, you can see his faults.

I think you need to carry on with firm reinforcement but I think that football will be good for him because there are rules and he has to consider his team mates. After all, you cannot keep fouling/hacking your own side!

I also hate soft play areas. It is always a place where children seem to forget their basic manners whilst some parents sit having a drink acting like their childrens' conduct is no longer their responsibility. I'd give it a wide berth. Whilst it's a shame for your younger child, there are happier environments where they can both enjoy themselves that is not a hot, sweaty, hell.

Ask the school to let you know if there are any issues - they often don't for an easy life but working together will benefit your son.

Thanks for all your responses
Just to clarify a few things,
This has happened even when soft play has been the first and only activity of the day.
We didn't go to soft plays altogether for a few months but my daughter loves them and figured he should know how to behave by this point hence trying them again.
Other children in these places have hit him before, unprovoked but he doesn't seem scared or not want to go to these places because of it.
Pre school have no issues at all, he is very well behaved and if anyone lashes out at him he tells the teacher straight away without retaliating which makes me wonder why he will do it with me!
Although I guess he thinks nobody can see him at the time he is doing it.
I think soft play will have to be out, and something I take my daughter to when he's at pre school as he just doesn't seem able to control his aggression there.

Recently I noticed my son hitting other kids for what appeared to be no reason and, to cut a long story short, it turn out he has a disorder (sensory processing disorder) which means he inteprets every jostle and bump as an attack and goes into fight mode.

Not to say that is what is up with your boy but just to put it put there that sometimes what we see is quite dfferent to what the child is experiencing.

At school he is in a controlled and safe environment. He can be himself, an adult is nearby and he can relax.

At softplay his adrenalin is pumping, everyone is racing about, noise, no nearby adult ( you have your smaller one, no reflection on you) and fight or flight kicks in. I doubt very much in the split second he and and another child have a moment that he thinks " can she see me?" And then throws a punch. He is in a wild enviroment and that is how he behaves to protect himself without the usual controls he is used to in place ( teacher feet away, you feet away, calm etc) it's a self preservation.

Avoid softplay. It doesn't work for your ds, park is better tbh, and taking him away is ok, but I don't think you can punich him for behaving like that in such a enviroment where he is on his own with lots of excited dc and no real controls in place emotionally which I think is quite normal. It's a big ask. Farms and play areas where you are nearby and he knows you are so feels safe sounds better. Imo:)

I was going to suggest martial arts.
My DS 6 does Taekwando and it's very much about discipline and restraint.
He has been doing it since he was 5 and he loves it.
We were at a friends house the other day and they were playing upstairs, I heard the other boy suggest they fight and DS replied " we can spar but Master says no contact"
He is not especially violent but he is very large and strong for his age so it's important he can control himself.
Maybe see if there is a class near you? They take them from 4 where DS goes

What struck me is that he was doing this when he didn't think he could he be seen - almost sneaky behaviour IYSWIM?

I have no idea what the answer is OP, martial arts may be worth a go to get some aggression out in a controlled manner?

OP I am worried about your assertion that he does know right for wrong because he said "he would get told off" if he did it at nursery.

I actually think this is the problem right here. You have been trying to administer positive parenting while nursery are simple punishing him. So he has learnt to avoid punishment from them, rather than to do the right thing from you.

He currently has a rubbish reason for not hitting that evaporates if he doesn't think anyone can see him.

I would either speak to nursery about using a different approach or take him out of nursery (if you can). Spending some time really intensively role playing with him might get him to the point of feeling some empathy with other children, so that he doesn't hit because he wouldn't like it rather than because he might get caught.

feel for you op. We went through something similar a couple of years back a few of the things we did -

Copy the rules and techniques that were used a pre-school for stop, sit down, quiet ect.
Had a backwards rewards counter. - i found that mine didnt care if he didnt earn a sticker. it was a case of him not missing what he didnt have. So instead we had a jar with counters in. Every time he did something he lost a counter from the jar. The treat he got was dependent on how may he had left in the jar at the end of the day/week. For some reason loosing something made more of a impact than not getting something if you see what i mean.

Lastly and it took a while to figure out i was doing this. Is that i became so wound up that i stopped doing things with him. Also the times where he was being good i sort of thought 'thank christ now i can get on with x and y'... so it had become that when he was being good i was ignoring him effectively and only when he was playing up did he get attention (to kids attention is attention weather it is good or bad) so i started to ignore more when he was doing something wrong rather than a short sharp punishment straight away and refused to get into drawn out conversations begging him to behave that went on for hours. And when he was playing really nicely i made a massive fuss of him and made sure i spent extra time with him then

It's AIBU so you're going to get slammed but I think it sounds like you are a sensible parent with a boisterous kid who's trying it on and seeing what he can get away with.

My daughter was difficult at your sons age. Not (much) violence towards other kids - though she did once bite a child at preschool "to find out what would happen" (her explanation) - but a lot of oppositional behaviour and tantrums and occasional hitting out at adults. She was much worse at home than at school, because a school setting tends to have clearer and less flexible boundaries, and is less emotionally charged.

We just carried in doing what you do - rewarding good behaviour, sanctioning if necessary (usually by isolating her in her room for short periods until she could behave) - and gradually she improved. She is now marvellous teenager - confident and mature and a pleasure to spend time with (setting aside the odd premenstrual strop).

One thing I'd add re sanctions for impetuous children of this age is that they work best if they are fairly immediate.

for me, any discipline or positive parenting technique that I tried took much longer than I imagined to make any positive change. But always worked eventually. Hang in there.

That sounds so difficult, I really feel for you because you are obviously sensible and doing everything you can. My 4 yr old boy is also agressive by nature it takes constant management. He's good as gold at school but wants to fight all the time at home. We let him have 'fighttime' with his Dad and will be starting him at martial arts next year. Good luck.

Soft play can be a dreadful place.
It is a last resort activity for me. too many children In there largely unsupervised while the parents sit, drink coffee and let them do what they want. My dd is a tall 5 and fine but my ds is only just 3 and theres almost always trouble with older boys pushing and shoving and he doesnt understand why.

I also only do one big activity a day. And almost always in the morning. Afternoons he is tired and when tired ds is HARDWORK! We swam this morning, lunch then some crafts at home. Hes just fallen asleep in the sofa! If we were out somewhere he would be awake, grumpy and kicking off.

However, what you described with the punching would really concern me. Can you speak to hv?

I had to stop taking DS to soft play for this very reason. He is now 7.5 and a lovely caring boy but as a toddler, nursery / reception child he could just NOT control himself, and I tried everything - I mean everything....... In the end I came to the conclusion that he is like me, and feels all emotions very intenseley. As such, he cannot cope in wildly stimulating environments like soft play as they just pushed him over the edge. Dont give up hope, I felt like I spent my life explaining that was naughty behaviour, time out, sticker charts, rewards, being sent to his room, apologising to other parents..... it was exhausting and disheartening, but he is totally different now and people comment all the time how aware of others feelings he is, and how caring he is! So he will grow out of it..... in the meanwhile avoid soft play....

If he wants to run about and climb things take him to the woods to do that if there are any near you - climbing trees and jumping off logs is much better for an easily stimulated child, that soft
play

Evening all,
Thanks for the further replies.
In response to a few things raised :
Pre school haven't punished him ever as he has never misbehaved there!
He is literally as good as gold and has never been in trouble, does as he is told the first time and doesn't push any boundaries.
I do think soft play clearly doesn't work for him, he has bundles of energy and I think it's just too fast paced and he becomes very hyped up by it all, other kids push and shove and he gets carried away with it all.
So our first attempt will be completely stopping soft play visits with him.
He is in many groups where he doesn't behave like this, football, gymnastics and swimming lessons where there are other children and he is always well behaved ( as much as any other 4 1/2 is anyhow! ) but I'm not sure if this is because another adult is there and he's unsure of the consequence or whether he is focused so it doesn't cross his mind to lash out.
Everyone I have spoken to so far has just said " typical boy " so I am very grateful for all the replies and constructive advice.
He is an intelligent little boy and positive parenting didn't go very well, he sussed it very quickly and whenever he did something wrong retorted with " but I was very angry " but wouldn't use any of the techniques we had given him.
Reward charts didn't either however maybe we didn't persist for long enough.
Taking toys away certainly isn't helping as he just plays with one of the others!

you said that he responded that he got told off if he hit at preschool. How is that not a punishment?

According to Stephen Biddulph (I think it was him anyway, I can't find the book), boys get a testosterone surge at around four. Need I say anymore. I had the same problem with my son when he was younger (he was an absolute nightmare for a while, I dreaded taking him anywhere). He's 20 now and adorable. :-)

I'm sure he'll be fine - keep calm.

So he does football, gymnastics and swimming lessons as regular activities and then has farm, lunch and softplay as a day out?? Phew! I'm tired just reading that!
I would think maybe he just needs some unstructured time,
He's four!

My ds2 is 4 1/2 too and we are literally just coming out the other side of this, just as I was beginning to give up all hope.

We are now at the stage where 99% of the time ds will walk away and tell an adult if someone has hurt him/taken a toy/been mean rather than just smacking them across the head. He now 99% of the time will say "I'm very angry now, I'm going to rest in my room" he will now 99% of the time use his words instead of automatically lashing out.

It was hard work and I wondered if we would ever get there but we did and you will too. Choose a discipline method and stick with it. When you get to the point you think it's not working, keep at it for another month. Positive parenting works with my ds1. It absolutely does not with ds2. We went down the 1, 2, 3 magic route with a few tweaks to suit us.

I agree that he sounds overwhelmed and overstimulated. He does so much in a week and he needs time to just be.

My ds2 goes to Kindy. On Kindy days (he finishes at 2.30pm) we come home for a snack and a rest and some quiet activities.

On non kindy days, we do all of our activites in the morning. Park, beach, swimming, soft play, bike rides etc a picnic out in summer and the afternoons are back at home doing arts and crafts, lego, gardening, whatever he wants to do.

I don't take him to any other organised activities like football or swimming lessons anymore because what he's doing now is enough and we've finally found a good balance. We'll try more structured activities when he is older.

Good Luck.

I meant when I asked him why do you not hit at pre school he replied because he would get told off, but he's never done it there so he must have seen someone else getting into trouble.
I agree maybe he is too busy.
With 2 children with an 18 month age gap I try to keep them entertained as much as I can!
He only goes to pre school 2 mornings a week so I try to make him have a lovely week by filling it with stuff he likes to do, but actually when I now think back to it, the days he has behaved best are days when we have just pottered or been somewhere that I thoight would bore him yet he's really enjoyed it.
So that's something to look at now.
Today we are going to head to the park on our bikes for a little while and actually come home at lunchtime which is something we rarely do, we usually leave the house in the morning and come home for dinner!
Tomorrow he has a friends birthday party, it's in a farm so a little more spaced out but they get an hour in the soft play there too so I'm really hoping that goes okay :-( as without drawing lots of attention to it I won't be able to keep him out whilst all the other children go in

Soft play is vile for some kids. My lads got far too boisterous in them and always had fights.

Your day sounds far too busy and exciting. The farm was enough and then home for lunch. TV, down time, craft play garden etcetera.

I used to take mine to the woods and avoid small cramped busy plays areas.

Punching etc no not allowed unless defending themselves.

Keep going it gets better. Mine are 25/24 and utterly gentje giants now.

Warn him before going in that any nonsense and he's out. Call him out for frequent drinks to calm down and let him know you are watching him.

If no incidents then reward him in the way out/home with a magazine or littie treat. Lots of praise too.

I see you've already decided that soft play isn't the best environment for him and I agree - it's loud, noisy, often has a very distinctive smell, bright colours, lots of other children, there are lots of reasons why it may tip him over the edge while other environments don't.

There's also every chance the other child did or said something to tip your DS over the edge - although you of course were 100% right to deal with the behaviour you saw in front of you, rather than asking questions about that.

I think your best bet is to pick one course of action and stick with it. Firm, consistent, calm. I really recommend 'How to talk so children will listen' - it's very hot on consequences fitting the 'crime'.

For the party - a quiet morning beforehand. Talk to him about what's ahead. Remind him before he goes in what you expect and give him a get out - if you feel angry or worried or whatever, come right out or shout for me and I will come right away.

Pull him out every 15 minutes - say it's for a drink, but really it's to take him away and say, 'you're doing really well, you seem very calm, remember what we agreed if you feel upset.' And then hover.

You'll get there.

Just an observation - it seems like you had a pretty full on day - farm in the morning, then meeting grandma and soft play.

Do you think he's getting overstimulated? I know mine are more likely to play up if they are.