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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

R-word apologists on jury service. I am scared now.

118 replies

keepingmum121 · 29/03/2015 23:20

This is only in AIBU because the thread that inspired it is also here.

I have reported a 'R' against me a few months ago and the process of the investigation is very trying (to say the least).

Now I am absolutely terrified that if this goes to court, there might be people on the jury with similar opinions as some people on that other thread (I hope you know which one I mean).

Do you know, are the jury told in NO uncertain terms what the definition of R is before proceedings commence? Are there efforts made to eliminate people who excuse the man who did it for stupid reasons?

I'm scared :(

OP posts:
KenAdams · 29/03/2015 23:42

If it helps you focus, you can ask for a screen to be put up as well so nobody but the judge can see you. The court will be cleared of everyone bar the Clerk and the Usher to allow you to walk into and out of the court room.

Cross examination can sometimes be handled very sensitively, but it can also get quite difficult. Prepare yourself.

You can also ask for breaks when you need them, although any judge worth his salt will call for them if he feels you need one.

Original poster
keepingmum121 · 29/03/2015 23:43

What happens in cross examination then? Will they ask me a series of yes and no questions and try to back me into a corner by seeming to contradict myself?
What worries me is that I remember lots of details but can't put them into order anymore. Little details about what was said and done to me. It was more than just the sex. There was also biting and forcing his hands into me that came before. And then there are details I don't remember. I discovered bruises up my throat but I can't for the life of me remember the moment he caused them. I think I must have dissociated.

OP posts:
ramanoop · 29/03/2015 23:44

You should talk to a psychiatrist - it will help. And looking at it as a game of statistics is the wrong way of going about it. It's not a game show where people independently vote - there is discussion and deliberation by the jury as to whether the prosecution has successfully proved all requisite elements of the offence.

listsandbudgets · 29/03/2015 23:44

I have sent you a private message OP - hope it reassures you slightly

There is nothing really ou can do to prepare except the basics - read your statement a few times. Tell the truth. I'm afraid the defence barrister will go at the matter from every angle and keep repeating questions in different formats - if he does be consistent and keep repeating your anwers....

I told you already he r*d me

As i said before I didn't consent

I didnt want to do it

He made me

I've already answered that

I told you already

They will try to get you to slip up but just be consistent and remember also that the jury (or at least some of them) will be judging the way the barrister goes about things as much as they're assessing your answers

cogitosum · 29/03/2015 23:45

I don't have any words of advice sorry but wanted to give some support Flowers

Original poster
keepingmum121 · 29/03/2015 23:46

Thank you listsandbudgets. That does help xx

OP posts:
Meloria · 29/03/2015 23:49

The defence barrister won't be allowed to treat you unfairly or too aggressively but it is his job to make his client look good and to pick your story apart so it won't feel nice at all. You have to be prepared to feel like you are being called a liar or a fantasist. All you can do is stay as calm as you can and put your side of the story as clearly as you can. If the defence behave improperly the CPS barrister will raise it with the judge.

ramanoop · 29/03/2015 23:49

Sounds like it won't be denied that intercourse occurred. As such, the question will be as to whether:
(a) you consented
(b) the defendant reasonably believed you consented.

A large number of questions will focus on the run to sex, and a blow-by-blow summary of what happened during foreplay/sex, and how your actions could have come across.

You should get things straight in your head first, otherwise, to be perfectly frank, you will be perceived as a bad witness. Hence my suggestion of chatting to a psychiatrist just to explore the event in a safe environment.

DoJo · 29/03/2015 23:50

I know nothing about the process, except that it takes someone unfathomably brave to go through it, especially give how clinical it can all seem. You are an inspiration and whatever happens I hope you know that there are millions of us out there who are thankful that we have people like you to help the authorities in the battle against the vermin who perpetrate this kind of crime. I am humbled, grateful and in awe of your contribution to the good in the world. Flowers

Original poster
keepingmum121 · 29/03/2015 23:54

I only wish I could get it straight in my head. It might help me deal with it better. :(

I was so confused straight after it happened, I was nice and polite to him.

All I can do is repeat what I remember for sure. I begged him to stop and tried to push him away. But all the nitty gritty of who said what and in what order and the order of his other actions are not at all clear. That they happened is clear enough, but not the sequence. This is so crap.

OP posts:
ramanoop · 29/03/2015 23:58

Yes, you need to know the nitty gritty, but a psychiatrist who takes you through it slowly will really help.

Original poster
keepingmum121 · 30/03/2015 00:04

Will I have to find a psych myself, or are they provided as a matter of course? Do you know? I agree, that could really help.

OP posts:
ASAS · 30/03/2015 00:05

You've said you were confused (afterwards), but could you possibly see that you weren't necessarily confused but traumatised and terrified. Did the police suggest or signpost you to counselling? This really would help. I don't want you locking bits away, and as a previous poster said, you could piece it together in a safe environment. What do you think about that?

ASAS · 30/03/2015 00:08

Do you have a case worker at Rape Crisis? They may be able to signpost to a counsellor? Or ask your GP? I'm shocked it isn't a matter of course but if you are struggling now please self refer so you are healthy and resilient for the trial.

You are honestly so brave.

Original poster
keepingmum121 · 30/03/2015 00:10

There is a general feeling of having been totally out of control as it was happening. It feels like a stuck record in some parts. Trying to pull my top back down, trying to shove his hands away. There was so much data coming at me. I can't process it.
There is a crisis centre here. Actually, that is where I did the video statement and met some staff. They did say I have up to ten sessions if I need them.

OP posts:
Original poster
keepingmum121 · 30/03/2015 00:12

I don't feel at all brave. My motives for reporting him are: a) because I always wonder if my psychological wounds would have healed 18 years ago if I had tried for justice. Too late now. And b) this guy was SO adept at what he did to me, I would be surprised if there were not others before me.

OP posts:
OrlandoWoolf · 30/03/2015 00:16

Just want to wish you the best - if that's an appropriate word. I can't imagine how harrowing this will be and I hope you have the support in RL to help you. The good thing about MN is that there are people who have unfortunately been in the same position and can share their experiences.

Take care

Jenda · 30/03/2015 00:18

I can't offer advice but I just wanted to add that I think you are brave. Your fears put a lot of people off from reporting. Use those sessions they might be re helpful.

I know a few apologists but the vile things they say are when drunk or on their soapbox about something stupid. I genuinely do not believe that in a court room having heard a distressing testimony they would be able to find a single reason to defend anyone who commits such a crime. Thanks Thanks

WorraLiberty · 30/03/2015 00:18

If it's any help, my DH spent 13 weeks as a juror on a trial last year.

It was a small Romanian prostitution and people trafficking ring, that amongst other charges involved 3 counts of rape - vaginal, oral and anal.

He said that at the start, there were some jurors who were very 'stuck in their ways' and quite sexist in their closed minded views and opinions.

By the end of the 13 weeks he couldn't believe the change in attitude of those people and the verdict was unanimous on the rape charges.

So what I took from that is, no matter what view a person holds before they sit on a jury, the whole experience/advice/views of other jurors can completely change them and their 'long held views'.

Please remember you're talking about 12 completely random human beings from every walk of life.

So don't let anything you've read on the internet put you off standing up for yourself and possibly preventing someone else from going through what you did Thanks

ASAS · 30/03/2015 00:21

Well those are 2 reasons WHY you're brave then aren't they.

You seem very coherent and I say that to make you feel confident in giving evidence. Tomorrow jot down what you've said here: for instance, you've told us you had consensual sex 5 days prior so he knew full well the difference and that you weren't consenting the second time, you've said he seemed adept (the Clint) so he knew what had to be done to force you.

I think after 18 years you deserve to speak to someone, take up the 10.sessions.

Xx

TheCatsFlaps · 30/03/2015 00:22

OP, I will be frank, it is not an easy process nor will these worries disappear overnight. We have framkly appaling conviction levels for all types of sexual assaults. However, a jury will receive clear instructions from the judge, and MN (as with all online forums) is not representative of society as a whole with regards to some of the opinions expressed on here.

Similarly, avail yourself of any and all help available. Give evidence from behind a screen and get counselling with the crisis centre. Do not waiver on cross, do not doubt yourself and write down thoughts as they come to you EVERY day. Help build up a clear chronology in your head. The Crown cannot coach you, but there is no harm in preparing yourself and ensure there are no inconsistencies. If you cannot remember, you cannot remember, please don't punish yourself.

I think you are incredibly brave. You have taken the first difficult step towards healing, I wish you all the best.

Original poster
keepingmum121 · 30/03/2015 00:24

You are all so kind. And your message was wonderfully reassuring worra.

Now I'm afraid that my demeanor will hinder me. The only way I can cope with this is to blank it out of my emotions. The only way I can describe what happened is by being as flat as if I were simply describing making a cup of tea. I know I will not appear distressed, though nothing could be further from the truth. I hope that doesn't make me look like a callous false accuser to the jury.

OP posts:
DoJo · 30/03/2015 00:25

this guy was SO adept at what he did to me, I would be surprised if there were not others before me.

Even if you were only doing it for yourself, it would still be brave - the motivation doesn't change the fact that you are doing something tremendously intimidating! And although I didn't want to mention the possibility before, as I didn't want to add any pressure, the fact that you are also motivated by the fact that you could be bringing closure to other victims and actually preventing further crimes from being committed makes it even more astonishingly brave.

Iliveinalighthousewiththeghost · 30/03/2015 00:26

Hi keepingmum121. I would just like to say. How brave courageous and inspirational you are to fellow victims of this heinous crime. You have our full support and hands to hold.
I have no advice other than carry on being as brave as you as are.
Love to you sweet heart xxFlowers

WorraLiberty · 30/03/2015 00:30

Believe me OP sounding flat/lively/scared/confident didn't make a jot of difference to the jury my DH was on.

The reason being, no-one was short sighted enough not to realise that giving evidence in a court is not exactly a comfort zone for anyone.

It really wasn't a comfort zone for the jurors either, so that's one thing you can definitely believe they will understand, because the whole court room thing will be new to all of you Thanks