To think that depression does not lead to mass murder

[TheoriginalLEM]

and that this "assumption" is quite dangerous.

Because no one could possibly understand why the German pilot did what he did, it needs a label and the label chosen by the media, fueled by the assumption that anyone who did such a thing would be depressed?

I am a fully qualified armchair psychologist, with my training background rooted firmly in mumsnet AIBU, too many psychological thrillers and a Cracker addiction and my diagnosis is that this man was a psychopath.

The ex girl friend saying that the guy said he wanted to go down in history, change the system and be remembered, could be quoting any young person on the verge of their wonderful career, full of niavety and enthusiasm - For example, when i started my PhD i proclaimed that i was going to cure paralysis due to spinal trauma and receive a nobel prize - I'm still waiting........ I probably didn't for one minute think that would actually happen, ever never mind the fact that i am crap at science.

The theory fits, the guy was depressed so commited suicide in a way that absolutely will put him in the history books. Err, but there were 150 other people on that plane!

I suffer from depression and worry that one day i will be so depressed that i would actually commit suicide (don't worry, i haven't felt like that for a long time) but i am pretty damned sure i wont be taking anyone with me.

Depression is a serious, debilitating mental illness/disability - but i think there was something far more complicated going on in that man's head!

There is talk in the media of him hiding an illness - could have have had a brain tumour for example?

Maybe this awful tragedy was caused by a man's depression but i think it is too simple to make this assumption, it just gives us all a "reason" because its unfathomable and to have this tragedy happen without reason somehow makes it even worse, we have no one to direct the anger at.

Do people consider that other people who, whilst appearing perfectly sane and reasonable, suddenly perform heinous massacres and then turn the gun on themselve to be "depressed". Nup, downright evil is my first thought - maybe this pilot was just that, Evil.

As an extra, you need to watch more Cracker and work on your definition of psychopath. There's nothing at all to suggest this, or any other personality disorder, in the very limited information that's in the public domain about this man.

I also think the media should be more responsible in their reporting. Since this happened I have seen reports that say he was mentally ill, not taking his meds, devastated over a recent break up, a muslim convert, has severe eyesight problems and (last night) he was struggling with his sexuality. So far it only seems to gave been confirmed that he had some mental health issues.

I actually think people are sanitizing major depressive disorder and stigmatising other mh issues in their reaction to this. Depression is a feeling, we all have it from time to time, not everyone will have major depressive disorder which, in severe forms and untreated, can lead to people killing themselves and others.

The issue is we want him to be evil, not sick. Arguing that it might be mental illness but not major depressive disorder is denying the seriousness of those illnesses

It might also help if half the country weren't on antidepressants having never suffered MDD, assuming they know the totality of depression because they had a few low or tearful or flat weeks (you only need these symptoms for two weeks now to get a 'diagnosis' of 'depression' for what used to be considered being human). We don't honour the devastation of MDD with this approach to human distress.

It bothers me that depression is used as the major cause. It goes without saying that this guy wasn't happy and probably depressed but even sociopaths get depressed and lonely. Sociopaths are also angry, vindictive and destructive people. In my opinion the personality traits are the major cause of such a destructive act - not a low mood.

whatthese by DH and I were discussing this. I agree that on the face of it dperessive illness is probably not compatible with being a pilot, but there are many types and degrees of depressive illness and MH disorders, some far more severe and risky in this regard than others.

It's tricky - with diabetes or epilepsy it is acknowledged that you could have a serious attack at any time without warning and within seconds be rendered completely incapable of flying or landing a plane. And while most sufferers can control their illness with medication largely successfully to an extent, there are no guarantees that an attack will not happen at any time which makes completely unsafe to allow them to fly passengers.

With mental illness it's a very different kettle of fish in trying gauge how/when someone might become incapable, and in a completely different way. Mental illness can come on gradually or very suddenly and out of the blue. You might suffer for weeks or months or years at a time with no repsite, you might be fine for weeks then ill for a few weeks then fine again for a year… you might be mildly depressed or very seriously depressed, you might be perfectly capable of masking your illness and functioning well in a highly stressful work environment or you might be completely incapable of functioning normally in your own home from one day to the next.

It's just so difficult to call. If a female pilot suffered a relatively brief spell of PND should she have her licence to fly passengers revoked forever because of it? Even if she was completely better within weeks or months and never relapsed again? I think that would be harsh….

My gut says that people with a recurrent or severe problem should be medically retired or redeployed within the airline to a desk job, and I'm sure they are, all the time. But I can see why it's very tricky to decide at what point that decision should be taken, and whether it should be a permanent measure with no room for reassessment at a later date.

Well mental health experts will know more, but... if you look at the Hungerford man who shot those school children, the Suffolk Strangler and in the US the two teens who shot high school children, and the recent teen who shot his mothers primary class, they all had ongoing mental health problems. Recent studies of serial killers in the US found that 96% had experienced either serious head injury at some point or horrific childhood abuse. (Fred West had total personality change after head injury at 21).

The Suffolk man had had a previous breakdown & secret life using escorts. The Hungerford man had a history of depression & predatory behaviour with children in his Scoutmaster role which had all just come to a head. The US teens were social outcasts & had posted videos for a year beforehand with real guns. The other teen had ongoing mental health issues & had found out his mother was planning to commit him. So mental health seems a feature . But mental health has a vast, diverse range: Even those with bi polar or shizophrenia wont always 'tick' all the symptoms. Very mild Aspergers and Borderline Personality can often be dismissed as 'eccentricity'.

Everyone will experience depression at some point. Some will become ill and require treatment. An infinitesimally small number will kill others. If depressive illnesses mean you can't fly, certainly Abraham Lincoln and Winston Churchill should never have been leaders. It is far more statistically likely for men to be violent, so should they be prevented from working in situations where they have access to people or items that might be used to harm people?

If you had a job that did not allow people with depression to do that job - and you suffered from depression, WWYD?

Even mention you have some mental health disorders and people don't want to know. So many people hide them and don't seek help because they fear repercussions.

Yet many people will experience some kind of MH issue in their life. And for many, it doesn't go away. But these people with MH issues can and do lead perfectly normal lives.

The overwhelming majority do not go out and kill themselves and other people.

It's at this point in these sorts of threads that I always like to point out that people with MH problems are far more likely to be a victim of a crime than commit a crime. I'm not ignoring the fact that some people with MH problems do commit crimes but facts matter.

Lots of pilots suffer from depression, recover, and then go on to have flying careers. Whatever was wrong with this man that caused him to kill 149 people I don't think you can say it was depression.

It's very rare to kill others. Most people with depression and indeed schizophrenia kill no one.

Most people who kill themselves just kill only them although some risk lives of others by jumping off buildings and a few kill their children or spouse first as revenge or because they think the world is too awful to make it fair to leave the children or to hurt their spouse. The only suicides who kill a load of others at the same time at the moment are those doing it in the cause of Allah to get their 72 virgins in the after life.

This was shared on Facebook.........................

Imagine a little boy named Robin - perhaps a little girl named Robyn - was born with cerebral palsy. Imagine that the condition had resulted in zero cognitive impairment and very minor physical impact. Imagine that the child was provided with physiotherapy throughout childhood, reaching adolescence with a level of physical functioning that the majority of the population would recognise as 'normal'.

Imagine that Robin/Robyn had a flair for maths and physics. Imagine that they were fascinated by aircraft. Imagine that they flew - nice pun, eh? - through their GCSEs, soared (sorry) through their A Levels and went on to achieve a first degree in aviation management, simultaneously gaining a pilot's licence.

Imagine our hero(ine) began a career with British Airways. Wouldn't that be an inspiring, feel-good, against-all-odds story?

Imagine that a couple of years into their career Robin/Robyn experienced a seizure.

Their first seizure.

Imagine this was due to hitherto undiagnosed epilepsy, which had developed as a complication of the cerebral palsy but had, up to this point, failed to present itself.

Imagine this seizure occurred during a flight.

Imagine the seizure was so violent, so unexpected, so disorientating that the co-pilot panicked and was unable to manage the situation. Imagine that the inevitable occurred.

Imagine that The Sun discovered the pilot's name in their archives, having run a feel-good story about the same person a couple of years before.

Imagine that The Sun ran the next morning with a headline of:
SPASTIC IN COCKPIT

Imagine the public outcry.

It wouldn't happen, would it? Even The Sun would be too sensitive.

Yet it's socially acceptable for Britain's primary purveyor of groupthink to run with MADMAN IN COCKPIT.

With headlines like today's, no wonder mental illness lives in the shadow of its physical sibling.

Totally agree. Yes he was depressed. But he chose to kill so many people.

i said the exact same thing to my mum yesterday.
"something else going on there", depressed suicidal people wouldnt normally take 150 strangers with them.

runlikeagirl is that true?

I know three schizophrenics and two of them are very violent when not taking care of themselves-I feel guilty for assuming it was a pretty 'normal' symptom, ignorance on my part.

Depression can cloud people's brains to the acceptable and the normal for certain, but to this point?

I don't suppose we will ever know for certain what was happening. It's so sad-I heard the radio report where apparently passengers can be heard screaming and stuff :(

I don't completely buy the depression/mental health story. It feels as if we have been given too much information, too quickly. The co pilot is already 'on trial by media', and we really don't know if the information we have been given is actually true. The detail of a torn up sick note? Would you tear it up and leave it lying around?

Unfortunately I can understand how this could come about. In a particularly bad period of depression I became psychotic and from what I remember things which I would never usually even consider took over my mind, it was like being a passenger in my own body.

I know psychotic depression is rare, I've been ill for thirty odd years and only had one episode, and without the knowledge I have now, I was unable to recognise that until someone else told me.

A depressive history could indicate further mental health issues which might put the person into a state of mind where reality is skewed. I've been psychotic and I have to say I remember little, but what I do remember is being like a passenger in my own body, and that very unreal things seemed to be real. With that history, I can't honestly say someone is selfish for their actions, because their actions are coming from an abnormal psychology perspective.

I was lucky that my partner involved crisis services and I was medicated very quickly, I hate to think what I might have done otherwise, but I was unable to see that I was very ill during that period. I was entirely convinced my baby was trying to strangle me when he hugged me for example, and that there was an evil spirit possessing him.

I thought pilot health was quite rigorously checked, so I am surprised if he was missed and allowed to fly with any diagnosed condition putting him or others at risk. I know there is a second pilot usually as a safety measure, but in this case it wasn't enough obviously.

I was caught earlier fortunately, although this time around with a severe depressive episode I am not getting any help other than upping meds I am on and introducing more meds. Not even when I have suicidal episodes, which is really quite poor. I'm looking into private treatment if it continues any longer. I don't want to have to wait until psychosis before I get help.

So it is possible to be very mentally ill and get missed because when you see an overstretched psychiatrist they don't deem you an immediate risk because you haven't made the attempt to injure or kill yourself. Years ago, this would have me on the books and regularly checked, now my GP is managing it and he is not able to do a lot. I talk with a suicide helpline now, whenever I get bad, because there is no mental health care provision for people in my situation any more.

Sorry, repeated myself a bit.

What's happened has caused so much damage already. The things I've read and heard. Make me really sad.

What I mean about my history and understanding it, is that while I was very ill I had no connection between cause and effect. I wasn't aware of the implications of some of my behaviour. I was lucky I didn't make any hellish decisions in that state and that I was monitored. I've never been psychotic before that, although I had a history of depression, I was still working and had a nine month old baby. The majority of people I was in contact with weren't aware of my situation, not even my own mother.

Actually, as someone who experienced a psychotic episode brought on by severe untreated depression (many years ago) I don't find any of the reports I've read on this a problem. Of course depression doesn't always lead to murder (nor does psychosis) but it may well be a factor in a murder which does occur and it's not helping anyone to shy away from that.

Ah hadn't read your post fanfuckingtastic - you've said it better than me!