To think that depression does not lead to mass murder

[TheoriginalLEM]

and that this "assumption" is quite dangerous.

Because no one could possibly understand why the German pilot did what he did, it needs a label and the label chosen by the media, fueled by the assumption that anyone who did such a thing would be depressed?

I am a fully qualified armchair psychologist, with my training background rooted firmly in mumsnet AIBU, too many psychological thrillers and a Cracker addiction and my diagnosis is that this man was a psychopath.

The ex girl friend saying that the guy said he wanted to go down in history, change the system and be remembered, could be quoting any young person on the verge of their wonderful career, full of niavety and enthusiasm - For example, when i started my PhD i proclaimed that i was going to cure paralysis due to spinal trauma and receive a nobel prize - I'm still waiting........ I probably didn't for one minute think that would actually happen, ever never mind the fact that i am crap at science.

The theory fits, the guy was depressed so commited suicide in a way that absolutely will put him in the history books. Err, but there were 150 other people on that plane!

I suffer from depression and worry that one day i will be so depressed that i would actually commit suicide (don't worry, i haven't felt like that for a long time) but i am pretty damned sure i wont be taking anyone with me.

Depression is a serious, debilitating mental illness/disability - but i think there was something far more complicated going on in that man's head!

There is talk in the media of him hiding an illness - could have have had a brain tumour for example?

Maybe this awful tragedy was caused by a man's depression but i think it is too simple to make this assumption, it just gives us all a "reason" because its unfathomable and to have this tragedy happen without reason somehow makes it even worse, we have no one to direct the anger at.

Do people consider that other people who, whilst appearing perfectly sane and reasonable, suddenly perform heinous massacres and then turn the gun on themselve to be "depressed". Nup, downright evil is my first thought - maybe this pilot was just that, Evil.

People with mental illness are our teachers, police officers, nurses, bus drivers etc. I have a psychotic mental illness (Bipolar) and have experienced psychosis. I'm also a teacher, responsible for a classroom of teenagers. I'm on dangerous to them. Because I am well. And most importantly I feel comfortable admitting when I'm becoming unwell.

I hope it isn't schizophrenia. It already has such a bad public perception. Only a tiny percentage of people with the condition ever become violent.

If depression was a cause of mass.murder then our population would already be very much diminished as depression is very common.

Land rover your view is simplistic and ill informed. I can't even believe I'm engaging in this discussion to be honest.

I don't think we can say whether it must be more than depression without knowing what frame of mind he was in at the time. Considering the other 150 people people on the plane might be the sort of rational thought that he might not have been capable of at that point in time. Most people don't take large numbers of other people with them because they don't have the opportunity to.

What evidence are you basing that statement on rafals?

I have worked with many depressed people. Quite a few have harmed themselves though not the majority. None have harmed anyone else. It annoys me when these kinds of myths about mental illness are perpetuated

rafals -what a load of utter bollocks!!!!!

Laquila -as someone with an anxiety disorder and depression your "loons"comment made me

where would the evidence be that this man was depressed? because if that existed why was he deemed fit to fly? It can only be assumption.

as for the muslim comment - fuck off.

sadly the poster who said we will never know is right. So so tragic for the families. I can't imagine their pain just now.

My own experience. Although apparently they don't count for much because they are utter bollocks.

yep

I feel uncomfortable with some of the discussion I've seen on this topic in terms of stigmatising mental health issues.

I think there's a useful discussion to be had (and to be fair it's already happening) about stigmatising mental health conditions. I'm not convinced that a mass murderer (because that's what it appears he is) is the right focal point for this.

Most people with mental health conditions, whether stigmatised / hidden or not, don't deliberately crash a plane filled with innocent people (or commit other acts with a similar outcome). He was quite clearly deliberately hiding his issues.

A lot of friends of mine are so focussed on the treatment of mental illness (in terms of his treatment) and I can't help but wonder about the priority. There are dead innocents, there is a question of screening and the responsibility of his company and colleagues. The guy may have been wronged, but it's equally possible that he was a malicious, evil individual - depression does not necessarily change that in much the same way as someone can be depressed and a warm-hearted, generous individual.

So much of the reporting of this event has been wrong and the sensational headlines by some newspapers have been appalling. Speculation does more harm than good and I am surprised how much has been leaked - aircraft accident investigations are thorough and painstakingly slow for good reasons. We do not know the full story about this individual and the slow drip feed of facts about him is corrosive to all concerned. As has been said, we may never know all the circumstances but it is important we learn as much as possible and that it is made public.

I did think MH was becoming slightly less of a taboo subject but the language and kneejerk reponses of some folk is dispiriting. Are we really going to ban anyone who has a history of MH issues from jobs of responsibility? If so what employment is there that will guarantee they can do no harm to anyone else? There are pilots who have had MH episodes in their lives who have been succesfully treated and have returned to flying - are they to be grounded? What of people who worry about poor mental health - are they going to to go to their bosses now and if they do what sort of response can they expect to receive?

The best airlines have recognised this issue for a long time and have procedures in place to have their staff returned to employment as soon as possible. Long may this continue.

To put this into context, some statistics for aircraft crashes caused by suicide may be illuminating (basically a small number considering the amount of air traffic):

aviation-safety.net/database/dblist.php?Event=SES
traveller24.news24.com/News/Flights/8-times-plane-crashes-were-caused-by-pilot-suicides-20150326
www.faa.gov/data_research/research/med_humanfacs/oamtechreports/2010s/2014/201402/ (North America focused but an interesting conclusion)

where would the evidence be that this man was depressed? because if that existed why was he deemed fit to fly?

Since when is a diagnosis of depression enough to prevent someone from going to work? Is your understanding of a mental illness you yourself suffer from really so unnuanced?

Like others, I don't think it's helpful to speculate at this point. There seems to be evidence he suffered from depression, there seems to be evidence that it was recommended he be subject to regular psychological evaluations, there seems to be evidence he was being seen at a hospital at some point for an illness that was not depression, there seems to be evidence he was deemed unfit to fly by doctors the day of the crash but I haven't seen why specifically, etc.

There will have been a variety of factors, but

1. it's not helpful to speculate at this point

and

2. it's not useful for every man and his dog to pop up and claim that because they personally suffer from depression and would never be in a position where they'd decide to take a load of people to death with them, that depression can't have been the explanation here. There are different degrees of depression and different people are affected differently. Some women with PND end up tragically killing their babies, no? Doesn't mean most people suffering from PND would ever be at risk of doing so.

Well obviously you appear to know my thoughts and feelings at the points I was so low all I could think about was killing myself better than I do, LEM. Clearly you feel confident enough that you know enough about them that you can dismiss my feelings and experiences as utter bollocks. Which is a really cunty thing to do.

Rafa

rafa i am sorry if i upset you. your post actually really me too.For the same reason.

but i am genuinely sorry . thoughtless post.

im hiding this thread now. I realise i got things quite wrong in terms of expressing myself because of that. A few posters have misunderstood what my sentiments were and i don't want an argument or to upset anyone. I am sorry.

Many people suffer from depression but don't take their own lives let alone anyone else's.

However, considering the number of sufferers in the world I'm not surprised that there are a few who would do it given the opportunity.

I know from first hand experience that depression can cause irrational thoughts. It wouldn't surprise me if this man saw life in general as worthless and didn't feel like he was taking away anything valuable.

I think the issue is what medical conditions should debar someone from being a pilot. Epilepsy & diabetes are not allowed due to the risks, and it may be appropriate to add mental illness. This is not suggesting people with mental illness are more likely to be mass murderers, any more than diabetics, just that there are increased risks associated with the condition that are incompatible with being a pilot.

I heard that he had been signed off work with depression but ripped up the sick note and said nothing to his employers.

Problem is mental illness covers such a wide spectrum.

Some airlines are now insisting on there being at least two people in the cockpit at all times - seems like a sensible solution for me.

ProudAS that does seem the best approach.

CNN reporting antidepressants found at Lubitz flat...

"German investigators found antidepressants in the apartment of Germanwings co-pilot Andreas Lubitz this week, according to published reports.

Die Welt, a German newspaper, cited an unidentified senior investigator who said Lubitz suffered from a severe "psychosomatic illness" and German police seized prescription drugs that treat the condition. Lubitz suffered from a "severe subjective burnout syndrome" and from severe depression, the source told Die Welt.

The New York Times also reported that antidepressants were found during the search of his apartment. "

Antidepressants have been found to cause violent and suicidal behaviour in some people especially those with a certain genetic makeup.

A Canadian judge recently ruled that a teenager with no history of violence murdered a good friend due to being under the influence of Prozac

The judge's opinion is a landmark legal confirmation of the scientific fact that the newer antidepressants like Prozac, including the SSRI and SNRI antidepressants, can cause violence and even murder.

From the NHS website
"suicidal thoughts and behaviour may be seen in some people. These people have an increased risk of self-harm or suicide
If you are taking Fluoxetine hydrochloride, or you care for someone who is taking Fluoxetine hydrochloride, you need to look out for changes in thoughts or behaviour that could be linked to self-harm or suicide"

Can't depressed people also be evil?

We need to be able to discuss this openly. And I say that as some one who has suffered anxiety for years.

Some MH problems do put people at increased risk of harming others

In this highly unusual case no doubt the media will uncover some childhood friend who found him creepy, or something mean he's done to an animal as a child and the world will nod as though all is explained.

As far as I understood, it was a family friend who said he had depression. The clinic who recently treated him confirmed they had treated him recently, but not for depression. Its entirely possible there was something else, however when friends and family asked he told them it was depression. I suspect his problems are far more complex than he was 'depressed'.

The problem, as i see it, is that German wings had no right to see his personal medical file outside their what they held on him. 2 Doctors had signed him off work and he ripped up the evidence. It seems there was lots of reasons he should not have been flying at the time as he also had eyesight problems. The mental health problems do not mean he should never fly. But that he should not have been flying at that time. The problem is now, how do they ensure people who are responsible for hundreds of peoples lives actually tell their employers (as they are required) what had been said in private medical appointments. At the moment, they are just trusted to disclose this information to their airline.