to post a friendly reminder about school residential trips?

[ErmNoNoNo]

Seems as good a time as any: lots of school posts (as always in AIBU), the wine is flowing (Friday) and the summer term is coming up (come on weather please)...

It seems every year that there are many parents that are genuinely shocked to find out that teacher and TAs who accompany the class on residential school visits do not get paid a single penny more than their normal wage.

Yes, we volunteer. Yes, we deal with all the tears. Yes, we are on duty 24 hours and sometimes get VERY little sleep. Yes, we deal with the vomit. Yes, we encourage and make sure they get the absolute best out of their time there. Yes, we deal with all medical issues even though, surprisingly we are not qualified. Yes, when its mid-week, we also have to go back into work the next day.

Yes... we would really, really appreciate it if you just say 'thank you', when you pick your child up at he end of it.

(all you REASONABLE parents, I know you do - but honestly, the amount of parents who think we get paid for this would shock you)

YY I don't dispute the 60-75 hours but am saying this is comparable to other professions - just meant 37 hours actually in and around the classroom.

As a veteran of twenty-five plus residential school trips, I would like to say a HUGE thank you to a commercial child holiday organisation known by its initials, which we used several times in this country and abroad.

We were met off the coach by enthusiastic and energetic young people mainly of student age, who took immediate command of the children until they reluctantly relinquished them at bedtime, (and then they patrolled the corridors); we were banished to the staffroom, and had little to do with evening games and activities. It was wonderful returning from a long day visiting museums and educational sites to have the children occupied, entertained and thoroughly tired out; any teacher who has used local authority educational residential facilities will recognise the difference.

There you organise everything yourself, including trips and activities,which are bought in from the residential staff but you organise them; meal-times, washing-up, preparation of drinks and picnics; cleaning and running the gift shop, for their profit; the staff leave the premises at 7 p.m and you are left in sole charge until 8 a.m; there is no free time all the time you are there. If it is close enough staff from your school visit (voluntarily) in the evenings to relieve you for a couple of hours; otherwise nothing. Then there is the night.
And there is never a decent mirror in any of the bedrooms!

We get paid every month but not for the holidays, it is shared out.

Again not a whinge, despite taking a very large paycut to become a teacher i thought that I was fairly paid.

trevor
It's stupid because the working day isn't 6 hours, INSET days are spent working and aren't days off, Christmas shopping days aren't a thing (I've heard on here of disaggregated training days being scheduled for December, but not in real life, and all that means is that the training is done in twilight sessions instead), I don't know what an 'occasional day' is, and teachers don't get 14 weeks paid annual leave. It's complicated, but we are paid in the holidays but not for the holidays.

Thanks noble and philo - yes I agree with the working day and all that about inset days - and I've definitely never heard of anyone getting Xmas shopping days off! (could it be a private school thing?)

I didn't know that about being paid in the hols so thanks for the explanation about that. I do think when you compare [annual remuneration + hours worked per annum] with other professions, then teaching is still pretty much on the same level.

ohh.. so that being the case.. then it is going above and beyond to do the residentials and not compensated by other parts of the job .

oooooohhhhhhhhhh I have just totally changed my opinion on this thanks to this thread. Not your job to educate me on this but thanks!

I think the Christmas shopping day confusion stems from some counties (e.g. Herts) reserving one day per year (out of the holiday entitlement for children, or might be something to do with balancing up schools that have to close for Polling days), that individual schools can choose when to allocate. Many opt to take it on a day close to Christmas, which has translated into "Christmas Shopping Days for Bastard Shirking Teachers."

When I first started teaching there was talk of Christmas shopping mornings/ afternoons a few years earlier - so about ten - fifteen years ago. From what I could gather colleagues arranged cover for one another - this was in a secondary school. I may be wrong as they were not something that I experienced myself.
I have arranged cover so I could watch my child in a play and returned the favour.

I've had Christmas shopping days, at least a couple. That was in 1986 and 1987. Possibly 88 as well. We did an afternoon activity with both classes, one teacher, the head and several parent volunteers whilst the teacher left early.
It was usually the week after the Christmas production...

I wonder if people will still be telling teachers they have it easy when they realise the extent of the recruitment and retention problem that is on the verge of exploding. There are currently 3 unfilled class teacher positions in my old school-currently covered by a mix of daily supplies, HLTAs and the odd bit of unwilling SMT. No one has applied and they have been advertised repeatedly. The parents are going spare saying they want the school to outline a 'way forward' for their child's class as this is totally unacceptable. The head can't offer one as no one is prepared to take the positions.

If teachers are miserable, they'll leave and if nobody is applying-the posts are left unfilled. Will people listen then? Will some parents still say, 'well, other professions work hard too'?

This is about more than saying thank you for a residential trip, obviously!

Bring it on Rollon.
The only thing that might effect change is proof, undeniable and obvious.
We've been banging on about it fot years, but until the whole thing collapses, no one outside the system will believe us. Because we are all lazy, whinging timewasters who don't appreciate our good fortune, pay and holidays.
Get your OFRS ready, Winter is Coming!

Honestly think the teachers on here need to move at our school there is indeed a half days Christmas shopping, it's arranged for the same day as the carol service which is over by 11 back to staff room for nibbles and secret santa and then shopping day and Christmas do that night.
Most definitely not a private school but it's in N Ireland.

Can anyone else explain a bit more about teachers not being paid for holidays. How is it different to other people's work contracts which state they are allowed 20 days annual leave plus bank holidays?

As far as I know there is nothing explicitly about holiday entitlement .

We are contracted to work 1265 hours plus whatever is reasonable over 195 days.

I do think it is largely irrelevant tbh. Teachers work in different ways and most see it as a salary over the year.

It does become relevant if teachers are asked to do anything in their holidays - which is different from choosing to work in their holiday. A few times I was asked to do something over my holiday and I made it clear that beyond coming in for results day and a bit of analysis I would not do anything.

silverbirch.

Assumptions about holidays made here for the purposes of clarification.

A teacher gets paid for term time work - not for holidays, but they get paid every month. So they work ten months of the year and get paid for ten months of the year, but those payments are divided by 12.

A 'normal' person gets paid to work the weeks they are there and are also paid their holiday. They are paid for the 12 months work, but actually work for 11 months.

We are paid to work 195 days a year.

Yes, I don't get paid during holidays so if my school wanted me to come in and put on a revision session, I would get paid for it. Just as I don't get paid for my lunch hour so if they want me to do a lunch duty, they have to pay me extra for that too.

That said, I do put on lunchtime and after school revision sessions for my Y11s unpaid.

So is your stated salary what you actually get paid or is the stated salary pro rated for the equivalent of 10 months and then paid over the year? Ie do you actually get less than the stated salary?

That's what we get paid.

As far as I understand it, supply teachers get a higher hourly rate despite being on the same pay scale because they don't get paid over the holidays. Supply teachers are entitled to 28 days paid annual leave pro rata, so I guess that's included in a normal teacher's pay too.

The way teachers contracts are expressed, obviously creates quite a different attitude and culture to the times that are not contracted to work or on holiday. In other professions leave days and hours worked are not seen as a right in the same way. Most contacts have a phrase like leave days can only be taken in agreement and we can be obliged to attend work, work extended hours as required, sometimes including weekend and bank holiday cover.

Personally, It did make me wince a bit at the idea of some schools giving Xmas shopping days, as most schools break-up by 17/18 Dec, whilst my team were obliged to work-up to 4pm on 24 Dec.

I'm not defending Christmas shopping days for teachers for a moment,(and do they even exist nowadays?), but I would think that leaving it all until after the end of term is probably a bit late. So teachers need to do what the rest of the world does and go out on a Saturday a few weeks ahead.

Just wanted to add I'm not having a go at teachers in any way. I myself qualified as a teacher many years ago, and decided that the school holidays weren't a big enough incentive to enter what is a pretty thankless career.

Politicians, funding hurdles, school structures, pressures from governors, unrealistic parental expectation and forever changing goalposts make it hard for even the most dedicated teacher to achieve the best for the children they teach.

FWIW i don't agree with Christmas shopping days either and I suspect they have not existed for well over a decade - if they were a common thing anyway.

If a school did have a Christmas shopping day, then it wouldn't be because teachers are getting a free day off anyway, the kids still have to be in school 190 days and the teachers 195. They'd be teaching an extra day when other schools had holidays.

I was under the impression that it was teachers covering one another during the last week or so rather than a day off. Teachers were not taking a full day but a morning or afternoon and in return covering for another colleague.

Putting two classes together you mean? I guess that might work in primary, but no chance in secondary!