To think parents should take responsibility if children chase sheep on country walk?

[Firethorn]

Recently went for a country walk (public right of way across farmland) with SIL, my 2 nieces, and another couple and their 3 kids. Crossing a sheep-field, the 5 kids started chasing sheep, trying to 'round them up' in a flock like they'd seen sheepdogs do on TV. I asked SIL if we should stop them, she said no they always do this it's not doing any harm. Other couple agreed and said the kids are having fun, let them play with the sheep. I was a bit concerned as one child was carrying a stick and waving it around, but respected the parents' decision.
Shortly afterwards an irate farmer marched towards us shouting and swearing! She was really aggressive and had a snarling dog (off the lead), dog was circling us but not approaching. For about 5 minutes mins she yelled and swore at the kids for chasing her sheep. All 3 parents then turned on their kids and told them off, lying that they'd been telling them to stop but they'd disobeyed! (They hadn't told them to stop at any point). My niece burst into tears and hid behind me and I lost my temper with farmer for swearing at kids, told her to back off and stop shouting, and to get dog under control. The dad of one of other kids then threatened to kick the dog if it came near his kids, and after some more shouting we decided to go back way we'd come. She shouted abuse after us until we were out of sight!

I'm annoyed with other parents for letting their kids chase sheep then lying about trying to stop them! Also with farmer for being so intimidating and rude. SIL says we should just have apologised and carried on walking. AIBU?

'You're not sorry you just want the farmer to know that you lot weren't in the wrong'

On the contrary, I am sorry for the farmer, her distress and the way we behaved. I accept we were in the wrong. This is the main content of my letter, and my apology to her is genuine. I'm not blaming her for being angry.

However, I feel it's important the farmer knows how her own behaviour affected outcome of situation, more for her benefit than anyone else's. Launching into an aggressive verbal attack did not get her point across. Yelling abuse, swearing at children and using dog to intimidate them did not make anyone in the party sympathetic. It put adults on the defensive as everyone felt under attack.

I agree SIL is being unreasonable. But had the farmer approached less aggressively and said something like 'your children were frightening my sheep, who are pregnant and at risk of miscarrying their lambs' I know SIL would have been understanding and very apologetic. She would have admitted she was in the wrong, educated the girls, and spread word amongst her friends. Instead, she has fixated on the farmer's aggressive outburst, fuming over it and completely missing point. She thinks farmer is an abusive bully, because in her mind her kids were just 'harmlessly playing with sheep'. Had I not explained otherwise and told her about sheep being pregnant and risk of miscarriage she would be none the wiser, nor would my nieces. How would this help anyone, least of all the farmer? Surely mutual respect and newfound understanding is better than a lot of angry people and a child now too afraid to walk in countryside?

So no, I am not blaming farmer for being annoyed and upset, but I think she could have handled situation a lot better. Flying off the handle and yelling abuse never solves anything, and is particularly inappropriate in front of young children.

Op for God's sake please stop digging.

Snorting at a field of "boy" sheep! How stupid can you get?! I don't mean to be so rude, but my 9 year old knows that you don't have fields of rams and why.

What is the best time for you during lambing season to do a show and tell?

We often have folk at the farm at lambing time. Children love to see the lambs and we're mostly happy to oblige. Well, my DD(23) is happy to oblige, I just smile and try not to annoyed at them picking my daffodils. On Easter Sunday a lot of children from the village come up for an Easter Egg hunt and love feeding the lambs.

Firethorn leave it at the apology for your groups behaviour and forget the sermon. Having another go at the farmer by letter will just annoy her even more and achieve nothing. Your group were in the wrong even if your sil did not realise it at the time.

and using dog to intimidate

How many fucking times do people have to tell you THE DOG WAS PROTECTING THE FLOCK. FFS.

Did the farmer instruct the dog to attack or growl? I would be extremely surprised if she did as sheepdogs are not aggressive UNLESS the flock is threatened.

using dog to intimidate them
I doubt the farmer was using the dog: she was focusing on stopping a bunch of numpties doing anymore damage and the dog was doing what working dogs do i.e. its job.

Flying off the handle and yelling abuse never solves anything
True to a point, but I think this thread should have explained exactly WHY the farmer 'flew off the handle'. Give her a bloody break. Your SIL is the one who needs to up her game, long before she expects the farmer to do so.
I mean, if a drunk cyclist ran over your cat (say), would you go quietly up and say, 'Oh dear, you seem to be a little inebriated, are you aware that this damaged your perceptions and coordination and as a result you have killed my cat? Please don't do it again.' Or might you just lose it a little?

I guess Im a townie. Never had much to do with the countryside other than visiting for days out or holidays. It may not occur to me that it is currently lambing season (even though Ive driven past fields of lambs) just because that is not massively relevant to me. The fact that sheep can be scared to the point of miscarriage is totally new to me. Perhaps im ignorant.

However i consider it common sense to not allow my pets or children to chase sheep

Also, as a pregnant woman i wonder if i need to carry a sign asking people without children not to kick me in the stomach. Or put a sign on my door asking none pet owners not to kick my dog

Oh, so you aren't a sheep farmer then, Room.

Well sorry but then I don't think your opinion that sheep farmers can make time during lambing season to take idiots round and explain why you don't chase sheep is any more valid than mine, which is that they generally would have either the time not the inclination.

Disclaimer: I'm not a farmer either. But I do understand how hard they work and I have read and understoon the posts from farmers on this thread, who seem totally disinclined to pander to these idiots.

x-post...

Sil has changed her tune. In your original post you had her as saying "we should have just apologised and carried on walking". Now she is full of unjustified outrage.

I honestly can't believe how self righteous you and your sil are being about a bit of strong language and a growling dog now that you know that those sheep may be miscarrying. I think your letter containing a patronising mind you language type paragraph will only irritate the farmer further.

Surely nobody is so fucking stupid that they need a sign up to tell them not to chase and terrify animals?

A more genuine apology might include an offer to pay for any damage you idiocy caused to livestock.

'How many fucking times do people have to tell you THE DOG WAS PROTECTING THE FLOCK.'

It was not protecting the flock, because all children were on path by time it reached them. Had they tried run back to sheep, yes the dog could have stopped them to 'protect flock'. But they didn't, they were cowering. If farmer had control of dog she should have called it to heel. IMO it is never ok to let your dog snarl and growl at kids whilst circling them, no matter what kids have done.

Firethorn and I am a country person and have deep experience of this way of life. I understand your apology.

What we need here, dare I say it without being flamed, is understanding of different points of view so that people like SIL do not think the countryside is made the way it is just by nature - and that in fact the farming community are custodians of our environment, our natural beauty as much as our food. Equally that the farming community recognise that the country is there for everybody to enjoy, via designated rights of way - many of which are rarely used by the way. I want your SIL to understand and respect this, and eventually walk in the country and enjoy it. Not to feel that the countryside is a place not to enjoy.

Flying off the handle and yelling abuse never solves anything, and is particularly inappropriate in front of young children

So why did you and the knobhead dad yell and swear?

OP - you keep on digging.

Perhaps if the children had a more intelligent mother she would stop her silly fretting and try to help them get over this immense "trauma" they were exposed to, without demanding the participation of the aggrieved party.

None of your "points" make any sense and you just come over as incredibly arrogant and self-centred. You still think the farmer's anger was inappropriate, but you also thing that your SIL is "intelligent", despite the fact she lives in the country and doesn't know lambs are born in the spring and thinks that there are fields full of male sheep.

With that kind of logic, your opinions really don't deserve to be validated.

IMO it is never ok to let your dog snarl and growl at kids whilst circling them, no matter what kids have done

Really? Another daft point singularly lacking in logic.

So, if the kids were trying to kick the sheep or kill them, then the dog's actions would still be unjustified? What arrant tripe.

The dog didn't touch them. Stop dramatizing.

The kids were wrong and the dog stopped them from chasing the sheep again. A good thing, as the dipshit parents didn't think it was a problem and might have ganged up on the farmer if she hadn't had the dog there.

'In your original post you had her as saying "we should have just apologised and carried on walking". Now she is full of unjustified outrage.'

SIL believed we should have apologised, carried on walking and ignored the farmer, who she believed was 'an abusive blustering idiot with a screw loose'. She didn't feel we should have turned back or taken much notice. I'm not defending SIL or her actions. I'm merely pointing out how the farmer's behaviour made the situation a lot worse.

Yes given yours and the fathers agressive response to being told off by the farmer I can see why she felt she needed the dog there.

Do you not see how your actions further enraged the farmer? You were all in the wrong and should have apologised.

Oh KatieKaye just to cut to the chase, ffs [resigned look]

I was a sheep farmer. It is hard work. Even so, we always found the time to talk to walkers, engage with them, educate them. We are privileged to live in a beautiful place. We wanted to keep it that way, it still is. People still knock on our door and talk about the time we spent 5 mins with them and the orphaned lambs suckling from a bottle. The interaction is nothing - walkers come out for a few hours at weekend and we were lambing for 6 weeks in the evening and night and nobody interrupted us then. We still had time.

The danger is alienating all from the countryside and its code. That would not be smart.

OP, why are you still trying to justify your actions? Its a waste of time, posters aren't going to agree with you.

I have no idea what your intentions were when you started this thread.

ARoom... beautifully said. That is exactly what I would like too.

I do think SIL is capable of understanding all this, I hope oneday she does, and this is why I think sharing information in a civilised manner is far more effective than shouting, threatening or intimidation.

Just popped in to say that I've still got the ladder to hand and have arranged for an extension to be delivered!

all children were on path by time it reached them.

You clearly have zero understanding of working dogs. Have you ever thought that it was circling them to STOP them chasing 'it's' flock again? Our dogs instinctively circle anything that has threatened their flock. I wouldn't have called our dogs to heel either. It wasn't just circling the children, it was circling all of you. If your friend had threatened to kick my working dog he'd have had my DH to talk to who probably would have knocked him out. You really can't see that your party were all in the wrong can you? I wouldn't give a fuck if children were cowering away, so they bloody well should after perhaps costing us lambs. You really are an arrogant specimen. Drop the arrogance, admit you were in the wrong in the first place and stop making an excuse that because an angry farmer challenged you all you are victims. Next time you take a walk don't go to the country as you clearly can't respect it or the country code which I note you still haven't mentioned.

I'll say what I did last night, you're only on this thread to be a goady fucker. No sensible person would continue to try to defend the disgusting behaviour of you and your party. You all have a blatant disregard for the property or livestock of others as you have proven on this thread.

Wow, I still can't get past the fact that all those adults didn't think it was wrong for the children to be chasing sheep! I mean, you don't need to know the countryside code for that. You just need a normal amount of empathy for another living creature!

And then to lie and blame the children is cowardly and setting such a bad example for those children. What horrible people.

(And I do think the farmer perhaps could have managed not to swear at the children, but I imagine in the face of all that stupidity she was pretty angry.)

It was not protecting the flock, because all children were on path by time it reached them. Had they tried run back to sheep, yes the dog could have stopped them to 'protect flock'

So you're expecting the dog to show more sophisticated judgement and carefully considered behaviour than you all did?