To think parents should take responsibility if children chase sheep on country walk?

[Firethorn]

Recently went for a country walk (public right of way across farmland) with SIL, my 2 nieces, and another couple and their 3 kids. Crossing a sheep-field, the 5 kids started chasing sheep, trying to 'round them up' in a flock like they'd seen sheepdogs do on TV. I asked SIL if we should stop them, she said no they always do this it's not doing any harm. Other couple agreed and said the kids are having fun, let them play with the sheep. I was a bit concerned as one child was carrying a stick and waving it around, but respected the parents' decision.
Shortly afterwards an irate farmer marched towards us shouting and swearing! She was really aggressive and had a snarling dog (off the lead), dog was circling us but not approaching. For about 5 minutes mins she yelled and swore at the kids for chasing her sheep. All 3 parents then turned on their kids and told them off, lying that they'd been telling them to stop but they'd disobeyed! (They hadn't told them to stop at any point). My niece burst into tears and hid behind me and I lost my temper with farmer for swearing at kids, told her to back off and stop shouting, and to get dog under control. The dad of one of other kids then threatened to kick the dog if it came near his kids, and after some more shouting we decided to go back way we'd come. She shouted abuse after us until we were out of sight!

I'm annoyed with other parents for letting their kids chase sheep then lying about trying to stop them! Also with farmer for being so intimidating and rude. SIL says we should just have apologised and carried on walking. AIBU?

There is a duckpond opposite the library where I write, and I am horrified by the number of parents who allow small children to persecute the ducks by chasing them. The children will run up behind the duck and stamp, and the bird, clearly afraid, will fly. The ducks are really stressed out - and you can see that they are also tired out - by this behaviour. They get particularly upset when they have tiny ducklings bobbing around.

It's not the fault of the children - they are too young to understand. But it is part of parenting to teach your children a respect for the welfare of all other living beings, including animals, yet it seems not to be something many people take that seriously.

Little Worswollop Adult Education Centre

Local inhabitants have kindly given up their own time to offer training and acculturalisation activities to new residents:

Week 1 General introduction
What is the countryside? (covering the difference between country parks and tourist attractions and the 'countryside'; what is a farm; what is private and what is public; the Country Code). Workshop activity - Practising putting rubbish in bags and carrying it home. Practising not putting rubbish in hedges, behind gates, throwing in ditches or stuffing into random holes in the ground.

Week 2 The Community
How to fit into your new community (covering who sits where in the pub; why you must never improvise with WI cake recipes; the politics of the parish council; major family feuds of up to 3 generations; where kids can play. Workshop activity - practising how to put Big Rob into recovery position when discovered drunk in the lanes.

Week 3 Flora and Fauna
Your new friends (covering why you shouldn't forage the tiny grey mushrooms; not picking wild flowers; how to get permission to collect wood for your aga; identification guide to common farm animals; how to cross a field with animals (or not); which ponies in Bottom Field are known biters; why Cockerals crow in the morning and what you can(not) do about it. Workshop Activity - practising looking at animals and plants without touching.

Week 4 Keeping Safe
Avoiding problems (covering which side of the road to walk on when there isn't a pavement; dogs and livestock; how to split wood without chopping anything off; why you shouldn't have a BBQ in a hayfield; why you really shouldn't piss off the farmer at Appleview farm and what he does if you do and how many shotguns he owns). Workshop Activity - watching Public Safety Film about Farms 'The Apaches'.

It's not the fault of the children - they are too young to understand. But it is part of parenting to teach your children a respect for the welfare of all other living beings, including animals, yet it seems not to be something many people take that seriously

Exactly Shove .....

As for the OP getting a 'hard time' .... yep, she wasn't these kids' parents, but neither does it come across that she nonetheless gave them (the parents) a piece of her mind. I'd have gone absolutely batshit crazy in her shoes if people I was with behaved like this (assuming they took no notice of a 'suggestion' to stop) and if I'd then come on MN to do an AIBU it would have been ALL about the idiot behaviour of people I thought I knew and NOT about the poor farmer and how she was 'rude'. It just comes across that she doesn't properly appreciate how serious the situation was and how appallingly these people behaved - yes, in subsequent posts she's reiterated she thought chasing animals was wrong but was still half-defending the stupid SIL who apparently didn't act out of malice but was ignorant because 'sheep are used to being herded' (or somesuch remark).

People are getting so cross because the depth of ignorance is almost unbelievable - smacks far more of entitlement and extremely lazy parenting to me.

love

I detest parents like the OPs family/friends. They seem to have had the dreaded parental lobotomy, as soon as their previous dcs are born, everything and everyone is there for the dcs amusement or indulgence, including animals. Pisses me off royally. Visitors to my house could not understand why I wouldn't let their kids play with drag, carry, tail pull, tease, annoy, man handle my cats. Because my cats dont fucking like it!

I'm moving to Little Worswollop just so I can go on that training course!

Particularly like the section on putting Big Rob in the recovery position when discovered drunk in the lanes

loveareading

Fab Loveareadingthanks!

Now I don't particularly like sheep - stupid smelly noisy things with small brains - but they can fall over and break their legs relatively easily, and as loads of people have pointed out, if they are pregnant it is dangerous for them and the lambs if they are chased/scared.

Why do people let kid chase animals? I've never understood why they let them - scaring a dumb animal is supposed to be fun, is it? I'm a country girl myself, now living it the big smoke, and see lots of little kids chasing terrified swans and geese around the park, while the gormless parents stand there grinning like idiots or egging them on.

You can bet there'd be much wailing and lawyer intervention if a snotty kid got pecked in the face by a swan (who everyone knows are very bad tempered and strong).

And don't get me started on the ars who let their dogs chase the waterbirds or throw sticks into the water for them to fetch (there are signs all over telling people to keep dogs on leads next to the lake/ponds).

If you don't know how to act around animals, then don't mess with them. Horses and cows can kick bloody hard. Pigs are pretty evil too.

'OP didnt have the courage of her (not very strong) convictions and say that children should not be chasing sheep in the first place'

You are wrong here. Throughout thread I have maintained that children should not have been chasing sheep! I have always said the parents were wrong to let them do so. Even the title of thread points to need for parents to take responsibility.
But let me remind you these were not MY children, and I did tell the parents I didn't think they should be chasing sheep. All 3 parents disagreed. Had I known what I know now about sheep miscarrying due to stress, I would have argued the point with SIL. But at end of day it is not my responsibility to stop other people's kids from chasing sheep or overide parents decision. The other couple (with 3 kids) were friends of SIl, it was only the second time I'd met them. And I don't live in country, I was visiting for a weekend.

I'm shocked by the arrogance and rudeness of some people posting here. It's ridiculous to imply that anyone who doesn't know about lambing seasons or reasons for sheep miscarrying must be 'thick'! Like many people I have little interest in farming or breeding sheep. Yes I know they shouldn't be chased by children or dogs. I suspect the other adults knew this too and decided to ignore it.
But why should a non-country person know about sheep breeding cycles, effects of stress or identify if a flock is for meat, wool or lambs?

Most city people know not to leave gates open, litter, let dogs off leads etc (these things apply in cities too)! But expecting them to know your sheep are pregnant and therefore highly sensitive to stress? Invest in some signs and inform the public! Many walkers are on holiday. If there's a public right of way through your land, all sorts of people have right to use it and its presumptuous to assume everyone knows the sheep are pregnant. If sheep are really this susceptible to stress, surely it's not suitable to keep them in field with busy public footpath? What if people are making noise in a group or jogging? Are you supposed to be silent when crossing a field of sheep? When walking in country I've seen many people approach sheep to try and feed them, take photos or simply get up close. Most don't mean any harm or disrespect.

at the posters who think it's appropriate or funny to put bulls or aggressive rams in fields with public footpaths!! Or those who think it's ok for their dog to chase people off public footpaths. I'm equally disgusted by posters who think we were 'lucky' the farmer didn't have a gun!

IMO there is no excuse for intimidating, aggressive, threatening behaviour. I lost all sympathy for the farmer when she behaved in this manner. She turned what could have been a learning experience into a display of power and aggression, and put everyone's backs up. The dog may well have been under her control, but if so she should not have let it snarlingly circle a bunch of frightened children (who were on footpath by this point not near the sheep). This sort of confrontational, bullying aggression does not encourage respect and understanding from newcomers, it just alienates them. You don't own the countryside and footpaths just because you were born there... you share them and learn to co-exist with others, even if they are from a different background. Sneering at people for being 'townies' is very arrogant, territorial and small-minded.

Why post in AIBU if you don't want responses from other people that don't support you?
'Amibeing_unreasonable/2341241-To-think-parents-should-take-responsibility-if-children-chase-sheep-on-country-walk?'

No YANBU, they should absolutely have taken responsibility for what happened, to the sheep and to their children. But they didn't, and the consequences were thatthe farmer yelled at the children who cried, and their parents let them be blamed.

The fact they thought letting their kids chase an animal in the first place was a good idea = thick

The fact you expect people to educate you lot traipsing around their town = stupid and trying to pass off responsibility.

Why the hell should she have provided you with a 'learning experience'? Why the hell should they have to put up signs everywhere?

She wasn't bullying at all, she was quite sternly trying to protect her animals, her property, her livelihood. And her anger at a load of adults plodding along not giving a shit about anyone but themselves. You and your friends/family were the reason why those children were told off so don't blame anyone but yourselves.

'You don't own the countryside and footpaths just because you were born there... you share them and learn to co-exist with others, even if they are from a different background.'

All land is owned by someone (unless it's a common). No one has to share. The land owner even owns the footpaths. It's just that other people have the right to walk along them. That's all.

You don't own the countryside and footpaths just because you were born there...

But they hadn't been on the footpaths. They'd been on her land.

You know, trespassing!

If anyone was intimidating my animal the last thing I'd want to gift them is a sodding learning experience, as if. That whole comment shows you have no idea, no idea at all how much it means to her or how she felt.

She wouldn't have had to come out with 'aggression' if you lot hadn't been letting your DC chase her livestock

As a side issue, I was at our local zoo the other week, and a group of small (primary aged) girls thought it was ok to run into a little hut attached to the meerkat enclosure (where the meerkats come up to a glass barrier) screaming their heads of because of the noise it made in the hut.

The parents looked most surprised when I told the children off for scaring the animals.

Do we need signs up for that too? Can no-one use common sense any more?

Actually ... it's quite possible that the Farmer did own the land that you were walking over. Are you sure that the countryside is a co-operative run by those who had been born in the countryside???

It is your right of way to walk on a footpath but you should keep to it.

As newcomers to the countryside (and we were many years ago) we went out of our way to make sure that we respected the those who make a living off the land. The countryside isn't some sort of theme park.

Its a right of way over someone elses land. Its the countryside code that you respect the livestock or crops that are on the land you are walking on. Running across the fields is not your right of way, you stick to the path. Would you also get a motorbike and ride it through a field of crops? Would that be ok too? Or can you see anything wrong with that behaviour?

Can I just chuck a stinkbomb in?
Just want to mention that there's plenty of adults who seem to think chasing a terrified fox with horse and hounds is perfectly ok,and many if these are countryfolks......

'Why the hell should she have provided you with a 'learning experience'? Why the hell should they have to put up signs everywhere?'

Not for our benefit, but to protect the sheep. Because in an ideal world, yes everyone would know about sheep being sensitive to stress in lambing season, and take extra care with kids and dogs. But in reality many walkers are just not interested in farming, will not research it, and do not realise sheep can miscarry if upset. It is presumptuous to assume everyone using a public right of way will be knowledgeable about sheep. Signs are therefore useful. I've seen many farmland paths with signs eg 'keep dogs on lead' 'please close gate' 'keep to marked paths'. If the farmer is at risk of losing her livelihood should people stress the sheep, surely it's in her interests to put signs up and educate people?

'But they hadn't been on the footpaths. They'd been on her land.
You know, trespassing!'

Regardless of whether she owned or rented the land, the field we were crossing had a public right of way (marked with yellow arrows) through the centre. How is that trespassing?

OP your latest post just digs the hole you're in deeper and deeper. But I'm not going to bother to offer you a ladder: as you & your friends are such "intelligent professional people" you can work out how to get yourself out of the hole you've dug. (Hint: it's not by keeping on making pathetic excuses).

While I wouldn't expect a townie to know whether or not a ewe is in lamb, or near to lambing, I would expect ANYONE to know that messing with animals not your own in a field not your own is just not done. For all sorts of reasons, which I won't enumerate, because they should be obvious to anyone with half a brain

And that it's not farmers' responsibility to put up signs for stupid people. But you & your friends sound as though you wouldn't have taken any notice of signs anyway.

You were on a Right of Way through someone else's property. Members of your party went off the Right of Way: I think that's what we call trespass.

Just quite whining and own up to how stupid you all were.

Stepping off the path is trespassing.

And I do a lot of walking. When I see those "Please close the gate" signs, I tend to hear an exasperated, tired-of-thoughtless-people voice behind. If you go through a closed gate on farmland, it should be bloody obvious the gate needs to be closed after you.