To think that MN has become infested...

[BetweenDogandWolf]

...with people who don't understand the difference between gender and sex?

Orlando, I have found it honest, refreshing and intelligent debate, yes.

Offs not fucking Ukip, I meant the feminism debates here on MN Feminism Boards.

Feminism chat isn't neutral, of course not.

Indeed, intelligent debate is rarely if ever 'neutral', Orlando. Why would it be?

It's a very open debate Orlando. Whether or not trans people are wrong, evil, or misguided. Whether their aim is to diminish women, insanely butcher themselves, or rape in toilets. All sorts of view points are welcome. As long as they're not on the pro-trans side of things of course. It's debating ABOUT trans, not WITH trans.

The definition of sex and gender as used by the UN and the WHO is here:

www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/

Examples of gender characteristics given are that women are paid less than men and that in Saudi Arabia women are not allowed to drive.

Gender is in society not in your head.

What the World Health Organisation says:

What do we mean by "sex" and "gender"?

Sometimes it is hard to understand exactly what is meant by the term "gender", and how it differs from the closely related term "sex".

"Sex" refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women.

"Gender" refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women.

To put it another way:

"Male" and "female" are sex categories, while "masculine" and "feminine" are gender categories.

Aspects of sex will not vary substantially between different human societies, while aspects of gender may vary greatly.

Some examples of sex characteristics :

Women menstruate while men do not
Men have testicles while women do not
Women have developed breasts that are usually capable of lactating, while men have not
Men generally have more massive bones than women
Some examples of gender characteristics :

In the United States (and most other countries), women earn significantly less money than men for similar work
In Viet Nam, many more men than women smoke, as female smoking has not traditionally been considered appropriate
In Saudi Arabia men are allowed to drive cars while women are not
In most of the world, women do more housework than men

It's all pretty simple really.

in Afghanistan sometimes a family without a son will bring up a girl as a boy until she's older. Some of those girls really resent having to grow their hair and get a husband once they reach their teens. The world is not a great place for women in many countries. There are few advantages to being female anywhere other than the joy of bring pregnant and breast feeding a child.

The feminism board scares me a little. Would someone be kind enough to give me A short sentence (or two) to outline the consensus position?

It's tricky.

You could say that sex is biological, and that gender is cultural.

But much of what we think of as biological is in fact culturally determined anyway.

MaidofStars

I think that's the million dollar question and the jury is still out on the 'nature vs nurture' thing.

I read these boards a fair bit and the general impression I get is that gender is predominantly nurture. In slight contrast my eldest daughter is studying psychology and is discussing the biological aspects of gender. It's all rather interesting seeing both sides of the discussion.

Feminism benefits everyone. Most British men are feminists - it just means equality before the law and fairness at home. No one should ever be scared of feminism. If they are they need to understand that that is all it is and that it benefits all people.

I think she's scared of the board itself as opposed to feminism

I'm not scared of feminism, I'm scared of the feminism board!

A wonderful cross-post.

Well. Some trans activists believe that humans are not sexually dimorphic, ie that we do not have two distinct sexes. I totally reject this as being arrant nonsense, but that's the position. This leads to statements like 'a trans woman's penis is a female penis' and 'female genital mutilation is a cis-sexist term'.
Likewise trans activists wholly accept the concept of innate gender - 'women's brains and men's brains' which means that you can apparently be outwardly one sex but inwardly another.

Feminists (I should say some feminists as liberal feminism doesn't seem to have a problem with this dogma) tend to reject the concept of female penises and believe that being a biological female is a class which is oppressed due to those female characteristics and that to call male bodies female makes the concept of female meaningless.
Same feminists also tend to reject the concept of innate feminine and masculine traits as being counter to the feminist position on gender determinism - that being female bodied does not confer either innate strengths (housework) or weaknesses (science and cars) which the trans position would appear to contradict.

There are also issues with men who haven't made any attempt to transition to female appearing bodies or to present as women expecting to access women's spaces such as bathrooms, gym changing rooms, domestic violence shelters and women's colleges (which were set up to address the disadvantage that happens to women's education at mixed sex secondary level)
The law appears to say that all a man needs to do is self identify as a woman and he will be allowed to access these spaces. Precedent has been set for this. There is also evidence that trans women commit violence and sexual assault at a rate commensurate with men, not women. (Nb I'm not saying that a trans woman is likely to assault or rape a woman only that there are a higher proportion of violent people and rapists amongst trans women than women)

A wonderful cross-post.

Sorry, I didn't mean to speak for you but your post resonated with me.

I too am scared of the feminism board

The feminism board scares me as well. It makes me feel ignorant and inarticulate. Shame, as It's interesting at least the stuff I can understand ).

Apologies, really should check for typos.

Sorry, I didn't mean to speak for you
Ah, no worries on that. I just take disproportionate joy from a 'jinx' type situation