DH thinks that all bad things people do are due to being "raised incorrectly" or a bad decision the person has made in their life.

[BertieBotts]

I say, WTF? I can't articulate why but this makes me rage! People can do bad things for all kinds of reasons.

Help me formulate an argument. Or AIBU and he is right?

I do think a little understanding goes a long way.

No he is wrong, I used to think like that but the older I get the more I accept there is wickedness/evil/badness in an admittedly small proportion of people. Not in a religious sense, just in a twisted human sense with no backstory to explain it.
The rest of us make mistakes for those reasons and regret them but there are some genuinely bad people out there who enjoy inflicting pain on others for no historical or emotional reasons.

I tend to agree with your DP. I work with challenging children - pretty much all of them come from either chaotic families, or have had something horrendous happen to them. The children weren't born 'bad'.

Well who you are and therefore how you act is just a function of your genes and your environment. Two people raised in identical environments can turn out completely differently. Some people are genetically predisposed to become psychopaths, while others can grow up in the most horrific circumstances and against all the odds turn out well. How people react to a particular environment is determined by their genes.

or a bad decision the person has made in their life

Seems like a reasonable pov to me. Why don't you agree that background and personal choices are factors when 'bad things' happen?

Well, it's a mix of nature, childhood nurture and experiences throughout life. They all colour what sort of person someone becomes.

It's OK, I think, if your DH is using this as a description.

It's not OK if he's using it as an excuse.

We are not raised in a vacuum with just our parents. Yes, parents do have a huge influence on us in the early years of our lives but then other factors kick in like friends, teachers, peers, colleagues and of course society as a whole. To put the blame for any 'bad' things on just one of these factors seems a bit close minded and pretty illogical.

Talking of logic, by your own dh's argument, I'd have to conclude that his parents have a lot to answer for! But that would be unfair as I don't think he arrived at his conclusion purely based on his parents' influence.

Oh yes it's a description. He's not talking about something he's done.

Hmm, see, I do agree that nobody (or only very rarely) is somebody "born bad" and that our actions are a result of our experiences.

I think it's the phrase "raised incorrectly" which I struggle with. As though there is a correct way to raise a child. I think he thinks it is quite rigid. But, perhaps, I am projecting a little.

I do think he has a point but don't agree fully not all bad decisions are made because of parenting or they way we are raised but it can be a huge factor some people make poor choices because they don't know any different or they see it as a survival thing (does that make sense)

Some children are raised so chaotically that they don't know right from wrong

I can understand your DH point, and it seems very true. Yet there are 'extra' factors. Being a victim of dv and carrying out bad actions is nothing to do with how you were raised necessarily, but might point to a mistake in choosing of a partner. I wouldn't say it was a 'bad choice', as often a person doesn't realise that they will fall into subservience at the hands of someone who was completely doting and loving initially. Yet to carry on, would that be a 'bad choice'? Perhaps.

I think the 'bad choice' bit does cover literally everything, but a bad choice isn't always willingly made, neither is it always the alternative to a 'good choice'. Having to choose between two 'bad choices' is not rare.

Perhaps your argument could be along those lines, and also in the fact that not everyone has the capability to understand the 'good', 'bad' and 'grey'. (Maybe the lack of understanding came from the way they were raised, but equally it can come from disability, learning difficulty, or the situation they were born into ie a child raised by adoptive parents in a loving nurturing home, may still hold resentment at their parents dying at a young age)

I think it is more a debate, as opposed to one person being right or wrong.

I think it possibly has something to do with a combination of parenting and individual's personality traits, not that I'm saying they have been raised incorrectly, but one child's effective discipline could be disastrous for another child, hence you see a family where some dc have turned out fine, others come out traumatised.

A thread not long ago - a mother described her dd as walking like a docker (sorry, not making this a taat, just trying to explain) - saying this to child A may be water off a duck's back, taken as a joke, no issues. To child B, this may cause resentment and distance the child from the mother and mean that the child ultimately makes bad decisions through feeling shit about themselves. Child C may be a wreck from it, feel bullied and unsupported and become an adult with extremely low self esteem. And all sorts of other scenarios.

Some normal parenting strategies can be the making of one child, yet potentially the undoing of that child's sibling.

Just talking abut myself I agree. I was raised in a highly dysfunctional manner and have gone on to make some rather stupid decisions. I do take full responsibility for those decisions because that is they only way that I can try Anna's make sure that it does not happen again.

There isn't a correct way to raise a child, but there are certainly incorrect ways e.g. abuse, neglect.

I partially agree, but other factors can play a part too.
Thing is, although some people are dragged up they can still go on to make a great life for themselves and their children, but it can also go the other way too.

i think you dh is quite right but agree that genes and the broader environment and society also play a role. For example a society, which as a whole, celebrates consumerism greed, individualsim self-centredness will facilitate people who act and think in those ways.

I don't really think that people are born bad but may be pre-disposed to certain characteristics. Some people, as we know experience horrific shit during their childhood and never get a chance at feeling loved or develop a healthy self esteem.

in the end of the day though people do have free wills and they have to be held accountable for their actions. But i do tend to think its not just their own fault .

Sorry, that was probably a bad example, because clearly a joke like that isn't going to create an abusive adult.

Take dh as an example. His father had a very long standing, public affair during dh's formative years. Dh abhorred it, found it humiliating, and now is very against affairs and will never have one.
Had he been different, he might have been one of those men who have learnt from this example and gone on to be an unfaithful mysoginistic twat just like his father.

Having worked in prison I have a lot of time for his view point. I think you cannot know what choices you would have made if you had been brought up in the way a lot of those people were.

That phrase is very much about apportioning blame to the parents. While they are terrible parents who neglect or ill treat their children I genuinely think most parents do their best and there is an element of luck in how the children turn out.

I would dearly love to claim all the brilliant things my children do are the result of my wonderous parenting - but then I would also be to blame for the less than illustrious, stupid and downright horrible things they do. But having had two of them for a number of years now it is clear to me that so much of what they do is down to luck, not my parenting.

There are also many people influencing our children while they are being raised from their teachers, to peers, to media and we can't control all that as parents while we raise them.

This is going to turn out like every other argument we ever have, isn't it? One of us expresses opinion. The other violently disagrees. We banter back and forth for a while. In the end we realise that we're actually on the same page but have expressed it differently or come at it from a different angle and assumed that the other saw it in a different way.

I agree that people do things for a reason that makes sense to them. That reason is often down to faulty reasoning, which is usually caused by something they have learned in the past.

It is not as simple as that! If only life were...
It is certainly a factor but one has to work a bit harder at analysing behaviour - assuming it is for the purposes of better parenting/giving effective guidance?

I think it is a good principle to apply to yourself.

I agree that "bad choices" can cover literally everything that anyone ever does.

This is a bit like the argument where people say their good circumstances are not dwn to luck, they are down to making good choices. Well yes that contributes, but you were lucky to have the opportunity to make those good choices, and lucky to have the intelligence and upbringing that let you identify which choices were good.

What did you mean by projecting Bertie? In terms of your own parenting?