Its perfectly acceptable to be rude to religous people...

[startrek90]

Definately going to get flamed here but oh well.

I get the feeling that this is perfectly acceptable to be rude about religous people. From reading the threads on this forum, and my experiences in RL, the amount of rudeness and sometimes plain nastiness is awful.

I am religous. I don't care if people are not, if they go to church or how they live their own lives or raise their children. As far as I am concerned as long as you obey the law, do what you want.

So far I have seen people imply that all religous people are closing their childrens mind, are ignorant, bigots.... its horrible!

I don't deny that there are people who are that way and use religion as an excuse.... but quite frankly you can be ignorant and rude without religion.

I am being unreasonable to be offended, but it really bothers me that its culturally acceptable to be rude to and about people of faith. You wouldn't do it to someone from a different culture or race would you? I have never bothered anyone with my faith so please stop taking it as an insult!

(Just venting, been lambasted in RL for daring to buy my son a Noahs ark toy. I thought it was cute with all the animals etc... but apparently I am raising him to be ignorant, bigoted and stupid. He will hate gay people and women and generally be a horrible person.....apparently grrr )

To be honest, merry, I think even gentle proselytisers are rude, once I've said I'm an atheist.

"A lot of people can be wrong"

Unless they're Christians, in which case they are right, and entitled to special treatment in society, and to be trump all other belief systems...........

"Interestingly no one has answered my question of 8.04 when I asked if you can't bully if stating a fact"

Presumably because it goes without saying- of course you can.

f you can't think of a kinder way than comparing it to believing in fairies Hak I give up.

She probably can. She didn't actually make that comparison - she asked if that comparison was rude. Well, pretty obviously some people think so, but jumping on someone for fulfulling their 'prediction' when actually they just asked a question is a bit off. Wouldn't it have been more productive to explain why some (not all) religious people do find it rude (rather than just a bit silly and annoying) ?

I doubt hak would complain of bullying but a couple of people on this thread seem to be specifically trying to provoke and trap her. That's not exactly nice.

"The world would be a lot better place if people didn't persist in thinking they are 'right' rather than 'right for them'."

It would be lovely if people of faith took that point of view and stopped trying to impose their beliefs on other people.

"A lot of people can be wrong"

Unless they're Christians, in which case they are right, and entitled to special treatment in society, and to be trump all other belief systems...........

Oh Hak, I'm quite touched. I never thought you thought so much of Christians....

Seriously though, I think you need to separate what you think Christians believe from what they actually do and the easiest way is to ask a few. I expect you would get a few different answers too.

I am a Christian and I know I have been wrong about things in the past...so no, I don't think I am always right.

"am a Christian and I know I have been wrong about things in the past...so no, I don't think I am always right."

But you do think you are right about your faith and have no compunction about imposing it on others....

And the difference between sharing beliefs and imposing? Difficult to ascertain and easy to get wrong. But should that stop people sharing? I think it would be sad if it did. I can always not listen, not read, not engage in the conversation.

Hak Yes, because it is my belief. I do state it as belief though. And I thought I was sharing on a thread that invited responses. Can you gatecrash a party if you were invited?

Imposing is expecting and accepting the privilege that Christians get in this country. I know you have no difficulty at all with your beliefs being imposed on all children in state schools in this country, for example.

Ah, Hak. Expecting and accepting privilege. You never do this then? Have you given away all you worldly goods and positions of privilege? I'm impressed if you have.

I prioritize. I'm no sell sword. I don't fight other people's fights, unless I agree with the fight wholeheartedly and then I would fight with them off my own volition.

Caps, will you join us in campaigning for an end to compulsory Christian worship in state schools and faith-based discrimination in school admissions, then? And to get the bishops out of the House of Lords?

That's the difference between sharing and imposing - the point at which your beliefs have an effect on the way others live their lives.

See my last post above Jassy.

Ah, there's the difference between us, Caps.

I think something is objectively unfair, I'll campaign to change it even if it benefits me.

For example, I support a higher tax rate for higher earners, even though it will make me worse off. I support demographic smoothing in school and university admissions, even though it probably puts me at a net disadvantage.

For me, it is a core part of who I am as a person to be aware of the privileges I enjoy in society and just as I work to end the injustices that affect me, I work to end those that benefit me. I think to do otherwise is profoundly selfish and immoral.

But - just to check, you get that these situations constitute an imposition of your faith on others, rather than sharing?

"Ah, Hak. Expecting and accepting privilege. You never do this then? Have you given away all you worldly goods and positions of privilege? I'm impressed if you have."

Sorry? What on earth do you mean?

Jassy You are mistaken if you do not think I ever sacrifice self. In fact I have probably sacrificed a degree of popularity by going against the mass move towards secularist thinking. However I do this because I want to preserve a place for spirituality, and specifically Christian belief and worship within all corners of society and that include schools. Which is at odds with secularism - although mine is a somewhat simplistic view I cannot see how it can be resolved easily. I believe preserving spirituality, leaving room for spiritual thinking is a force for good.

Hak Are you saying you possess no privileges at all?

Ah, so you get how it's unfair but want to retain your privilege because your privilege is important to you?

The sort of secularism most of us want does 'leave room for spirituality'. It just doesn't privilege one particular flavour of it over others. Personally I wouldn't have too much objection to opt-in religious activities in schools. I find it hard to understand why anyone would think this is not preferable to the current situation, unless they are very firmly of the mindset that they are simply right in their own beliefs and every one else is wrong.

Hey, SolidGoldBrass, have you taken this neat little job at the religious entity yet?

I personally think it is really important to acknowledge that the Communist atheists in the Soviet Union deliberately murdered hundreds of thousands of priests, bishops and religious women and persecuted and oppressed and discriminated against many hundreds of thousands of believers over the course of the 70 years of the existence of the Soviet Union, and I think it is really important to acknowledge that what animated the atheist Communists was hatred of organised religion and a desire to wipe it out by killing its leaders and terrifying its followers.

I think it is really important to emphasise that not all atheists are mass murderers [duh]. But I think it is really important not to entertain the delusion that the atheism of the Communists and their desire for a religion free future in the USSR was their motivation for murdering hundreds of thousands of priests, nuns, etc.

Bolshevism/Communism did in fact very explicitly link the mass murder of clerics and the extirpation of religion to paving the path for a bright new atheist future.

Obviously the bolsheviks were communists and atheists. the important point is that there isn't a link between atheism and being a mass murderer. Bolsheviks didn't and couldn't justify killing based on atheism, since atheism says nothing about morals. Atheism neither forbids nor promotes mass murder.
This is pretty pathetic, therefore.

It might also be pertinent at this time to mention the wrecking and looting of churches, monasteries and cathedrals and gestures designed to illustrate complete scorn for religion such as transforming churches into anti-religion museums, warehouses, etc., public destruction of vestments and books, all of which was done in order to intimidate believers and denigrate religion.

Of great interest too are posters comparing the backwardness and harmfulness of religious belief with forward looking revolutionary ideas. There is an echo of this theme in the allegations of irreconcilability of science and religion that are frequently heard today in militant atheist circles. And also out of the mouths of lazy, ignorant and ill-informed atheists who are really just common or garden bigots.

A few examples:
40.media.tumblr.com/428049e4fe9b6765472114157e881448/tumblr_mpsjzthDvF1sul5q0o1_500.jpg

www.smith.edu/artmuseum2/archived_exhibitions/godlesscommunists/images/driving_god_out.jpg

www.aoiusa.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/soviet-anti-christian-poster.png

40.media.tumblr.com/21a8f501aef2e7465268f171385e8dde/tumblr_mpsktlSZEO1stkobco1_500.jpg

'privilege: a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group.'

well, as educated westerners we're certainly all privileged but that's not quite the same sort of deliberate privileging of a subsection within the same society as pertains in the case of religion.

mathanxiety So true. Very very good post!

Ah, so you get how it's unfair

This is subjective Jassy. My religion has been fought and died for to gain the position it holds in this country. Not that I can even attempt judge these events personally, I know there was also much cruelty which I most definitely disagree with. However I am thankful that Christianity has a place in our society.

It's not really subjective at all. Do Christians get an advantage denied to others in school admissions, in the legislature, and in worship in non-faith schools? Quite straight questions, with very straight answers - I can't see how this is in any way subjective.

You were asking the difference between sharing and imposing beliefs earlier. These are examples of where your Christian beliefs (rightly important to you, just as rightly not important to others) impinge on how other people live their lives, and are thus being imposed.