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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Its perfectly acceptable to be rude to religous people...

999 replies

startrek90 · 20/03/2015 15:32

Definately going to get flamed here but oh well.

I get the feeling that this is perfectly acceptable to be rude about religous people. From reading the threads on this forum, and my experiences in RL, the amount of rudeness and sometimes plain nastiness is awful.

I am religous. I don't care if people are not, if they go to church or how they live their own lives or raise their children. As far as I am concerned as long as you obey the law, do what you want.

So far I have seen people imply that all religous people are closing their childrens mind, are ignorant, bigots.... its horrible!

I don't deny that there are people who are that way and use religion as an excuse.... but quite frankly you can be ignorant and rude without religion.

I am being unreasonable to be offended, but it really bothers me that its culturally acceptable to be rude to and about people of faith. You wouldn't do it to someone from a different culture or race would you? I have never bothered anyone with my faith so please stop taking it as an insult!

(Just venting, been lambasted in RL for daring to buy my son a Noahs ark toy. I thought it was cute with all the animals etc... but apparently I am raising him to be ignorant, bigoted and stupid. He will hate gay people and women and generally be a horrible person.....apparently grrr Angry )

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Mehitabel6 · 23/03/2015 17:42

The thinking of the time, Hakluyt. I am surprised you expect that we haven't moved on in a few thousand years. They would have had a different interpretation of this week's eclipse.

BigDorrit · 23/03/2015 17:43

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TheCatAteMyTaxReturn · 23/03/2015 17:45

I really can't see why Tyndale is relevant

If Tyndale is not relevant, why is book he translated still relevant?

Tyndale was only murdered 479 years ago. How long ago did Jesus die?

Mehitabel6 · 23/03/2015 19:02

I wonder why Tyndale did bother translating when you get people 479 yrs on taking it all so literally!

madhairday · 23/03/2015 19:50

The OT doesn't mention hell at all.

The NT does once in an account of the end of the devil. The 'hell' translated in the gospels doesn't mean anything like the hell of traditional thought. I reject that tradition of 'hell' being a place of eternal torment.

I think the bible is inspired by God and at the same time an account of people of the time. That doesn't mean it loses its power or is not to be taken note of, but it does mean we need to use the tools of exegesis and hermeneutics to interpret it for today.

Sorry I didn't get back to you on the whole evidence thing Hak. In meetings all day and knackered in body and brain! For the whole evidence for the resurrection thing, let's say that Jesus was murdered on the cross and buried. There's some contemporary evidence for this event in Josephus and loads of biblical material from writers close to eyewitnesses (and some contend actual eyewitnesses, an accepted position). There's all the Pauline stuff which is a lot earlier than gospel material and a good account of what early Christians believed - the early Christians who had seen what had happened/heard from close witnesses. Some kind of worshipping community were making these credal statements from as early as 2 years after Jesus died. The earliest poetry/creed speaks of Jesus dying on a cross.

Now I'm aware that you probably discount the biblical material as evidence, but there's a perfectly valid position to call much of the gospel writings history. Mark's source material is an early source which includes an account of the burial of Jesus. The mention of Josepth of Arimethea is interesting because he was part of the Sanhedrin, the Jewish authority which condemned Jesus. He'd have been unlikely to have been a fictional invention, certainly not in his donation of his tomb. Would be really odd to have made this up, given the Sanhedrin's dislike and distrust of Jesus and his followers.

The other thing which would have been very strange had it been made up was the fact that women were reported to have found the empty tomb and to have been the first to see Jesus alive. This would completely wreck the credibility of any kind of made up story. Women, sadly, were seen as lesser than men and were not usually included in any kind of narrative, especially women 'of low morals' as Mary Magdalene was viewed by society. A story made up about Jesus rising from the tomb involving women would be scorned and derided, unless of course it happened to be true. Early Christianity would not have taken off on a lie, particularly a lie involving women. The only explanation is that the gospel writers reported the truth, however embarassing it was for them. (I love that about Jesus, that even in his death he completely destroyed the misogynism rife at the time.)

Paul and the gospel writers then went on to attest of the hundreds that saw Jesus, and early Christianity spread from that time and that place and those events, not from some story someone made up for some purpose of their own. There's the whole thing of the empty tomb, of course - there's plenty of rebuttals, I know, not the least being the disciples nicked the body. What could be in that for them I'm unsure, especially given the fact that they hid in fear after the death and weren't exactly up for a bit of a fight with a couple of guards and a huge stone. There needed to be some explanation for the spread of Christianity. Other religions spread in huge numbers, yes, but not in a couple of years over one region then more and more in ever increasing circles, all earnestly believing in this one event and finding something transformative in it, something that continues today.

There are plenty of objections, of course, and perfectly understandably so. The resurrection is hardly believable. There's the inconsistent gospel accounts (which don't take away from the main points at play, simply give another point to think about: Surely, if the early Christians wanted to spread a made up story, they would have got their facts straight? Embarassing - or possibly consistent with four accounts from four different people at four different times using oral tradition and eyewitness memory? Bound to be some inconsistency, very suspect if not) - there's the fact there's hardly any non Christian contemporary material (not that surprising, given the humble beginnings of the movement)

Resurrection is an explanation for the events reported and for the spread of this faith movement in an unprecedented way in history. It's an unacceptable explanation for many because it simply can't happen, can it. People like me are stupid and deluded for even entertaining the notion that it could. I get this. It's astonishingly foolish to even imagine this, surely. But to me it's an explanation for events. For me it's rational and experiential, though, and without the experiential aspect the rational would no doubt fall down (although CS Lewis decided to come to faith due to a completely rational, and very reluctant view) - for me it's both. It's experience of God in my life that convinces me that Jesus did, indeed, rise again. Deluded? Maybe. But, like CS Lewis said, 'I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia.' [Puddleglum] Because I couldn't not. It's there, it's in me, it's life, it's incredible.

BigDorrit · 23/03/2015 19:52

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madhairday · 23/03/2015 19:58

I don't really want to do the Joseph us thong tonight Grin

madhairday · 23/03/2015 19:58

Ha! Or even thing. Arf.

BigDorrit · 23/03/2015 20:17

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BigDorrit · 23/03/2015 20:20

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phoenixrose314 · 23/03/2015 20:31

It's unreasonable to be rude to somebody else full stop.

And FYI, I am an out and proud Pagan - and yet my son has a wooden Noah's Ark toy that he loves dearly. Whoever made those comments to you is clearly an idiot. Knowledge and understanding gives us broad minds, not closed ones.

SleepOhHowIMissYou · 23/03/2015 20:41

I'm agnostic. I don't believe in or follow any religion. However, there has to be something doesn't there? Something more than we as humans are currently capable of understanding (I think String Theory's multiple dimensions come closest to offering an answer but even then the concept is, for now, unprovable).

We are limited as human beings, limited in our understanding and by our physical make-up, other animals for example have access to a broader spectrum of colour (we only see 7) and to sonar, as well as perhaps telepathic communication that exists in place of language.

If there is an answer, and logic tells me there has to be, then I'm afraid it's beyond us. I can shrug and say "I don't know" but others can't. 'I don't know' doesn't work for everybody. Some people need answers. Some people look for answers in religion.

All religions cherry pick (actually I think Greek Othordox recognises all of the books from the OT, but I would have to Google this) to suit their aims. I see the religions that stem from (and include) Hinduism are not getting quite the same kicking as those of the book on here, but no religion is perfect (thinking disability as divine retribution particularly).

What religion does do is remove the fear of death, giving an answer to the great unknown. Fed by the superstition that dwells in all of us (presumably this belief in causality served a purpose as hunter gatherers) that nags, that says, well, what if all those millions of people (now and throughout the millennia) were/are right? Do I dare not believe. Will I be punished, y'know if there turns out that there actually is a big guy sitting up there in the clouds watching me?

Like I say, there's got to be something. Got to be. I'll go back to teetering on my fence with my big "dunno"!

Mehitabel6 · 23/03/2015 20:48

It's unreasonable to be rude to somebody else full stop

That was my original point before I got sucked into the whole 'Bible bashing, hell fire' stuff -which I didn't think that people believed any more.

I don't think it is acceptable to be rude to anyone. Politely disagree- as soon as you are rude you lose all credibility and it never gets you anywhere.

madhairday · 23/03/2015 20:52

I said that there was reference in josephus to Jesus dying on the cross. I think it's likely there was some later interpolation in parts of that passage (the TF) but saying the whole passage is not genuine is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. That first part about Christ being sentenced to death by crucifixion is completely in line linguistically with the rest of his writings and makes complet sense with the rest of the text, taking into account his usual patchwork style anyway. If Eusebius added the entire lot he'd have changed the rest of the language to his own style. The 'he is the Christ' bit is suspect. The resurrection bit could be, but I wasn't owning josephus in backing up that point, merely in corroborating the death of Jesus.

HairyHandedFucker · 23/03/2015 20:53

What religion does do is remove the fear of death, giving an answer to the great unknown. It's a false comfort - we don't know there is a heaven. It's wishful thinking.
I am an atheist, I accept there is a remote possibility there is something out there, but I consider it unlikely. I have no fear of death. I hope to lead a long, full and happy life. Once I die, I am fine with being food for the worms.

madhairday · 23/03/2015 20:53

Apologies for silly phone typos.

BigDorrit · 23/03/2015 21:24

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SleepOhHowIMissYou · 23/03/2015 22:09

Oh there's nothing remote or unlikely about it HairyHandedFucker. Logic dictates that there IS an answer. What that answer happens to be though, who knows?

There's no such thing as a beginning or an end to the Universe because 'nothing' is not a real thing. Can a Möbius strip be perpetual, it has to be housed in something and what houses that, where did that something come from? Oh, there's an answer alright. I bet we'll never know it, not ever, it's beyond our thinking.

The trick I believe is accepting this truth, accepting our inadequacy to even comprehend the parts of the Universe known to us. As I said, some people can't. For some people, God is better than just being worm food, though of course this is all just part of the loop on the planet we inhibit, and if we're brutally honest, deep down we all recognise this, no matter what we tell ourselves to lessen the existential angst and make it all go away.

TheCatAteMyTaxReturn · 23/03/2015 22:11

Life is a but short interlude between two great silences.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

Mehitabel6 · 23/03/2015 22:13

I can't see why anyone fears death- it is going to happen. (I can see fearing dying too young or the way of dying). Either it is a huge adventure and you find the meaning of life or there is nothing- and if there is nothing you won't know there was nothing!

Mehitabel6 · 23/03/2015 22:18

I am surprised that if there is a God he still appears, to some people, as an old man with the petty type concerns, jealousies and vengeance of humans.

SleepOhHowIMissYou · 23/03/2015 22:26

Death feckin terrifies me Mehitabel6. Lucky you!

All my fears round back to death.

I attended a funeral last year for a relative whose family are religious. Myself and my mother were the only nonbelievers, we were also the only two people in the congregation, including her husband and children, who wept. Her close family truly believe they will see her again.

There's a comfort in religion. A comfort, as an agnostic, that I lack.

Mehitabel6 · 23/03/2015 22:38

It terrifies me to die too soon- it terrifies me that the way might be painful etc. The fact that we will die doesn't. It is the one sure thing in life( apart from taxes). I can't see the fear - if there is nothing then you won't know anyway. I don't believe that we will be reunited in any way in human imagination. If there is anything after death then I see it as outside our imagination. My mother is over 90 yrs- she has had enough -she doesn't want to go on. She keeps a brave face on and struggles on. I don't know anyone over 90 yrs ( and I have known a lot that age) who want to live on and on. You can't be sad for them. I have just been to the funeral of a 96yr old. His wife wants to die- she has no beliefs of an after life.

Mehitabel6 · 23/03/2015 22:42

I think you get to a stage in life where struggling on alone, with a worn out body, all your contemporaries dead, no quality of life, become far more terrifying a prospect than death.

SleepOhHowIMissYou · 23/03/2015 23:11

You see Mehitabel6, that just makes me want to quote Dylan Thomas at you.....damn it, I'm going quote Dylan Thomas at you (though I do hope you're rights about the welcoming death thing I really do....)

Do not go gentle into that good night, Dylan Thomas, 1914 - 1953

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

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