to not invite this child to DS' birthday?

[cakedup]

Year 5, kids are aged 9-10. Late last year, one boy - 'Martin' befriended 'Joe'. Joe was already good friends with 'Fiona' and DS which Martin was opposed to as he was quite possessive and continually tried to turn Joe agains Fiona and DS.

At Joe's house one day, Martin and Joe set about making potions. It later transpired that Martin had got hold of some poisonous berries from Joe's garden which he put in the potion, as well as pissing in it. His idea was to put this potion in Fiona's water bottle at school. Joe's mum intervened. She mentioned it to Martin's mum who brushed it off with "boys will be boys."

At school, Martin would give Fiona and DS evil looks and whisper swear words.

At Christmas, Martin sent Joe a Xmas card saying "I hope you get everything you want for xmas, especially to assassinate Fiona and DS" and drew a picture of a sword with blood dripping from it.

The card was shown to school, I personally went up to school to express my concern, school spoke to Martin and Martin's parents, and that was the end of that.

Martin's parents never approached us parents and it has been a bit awkward since. No cheerful 'how are you's in the playground as usual.

Martin and Joe drifted apart. Martin then tried to befriend DS. Knowing how manipulative he can be, I warned DS to remain at a safe distance and told him about the card. Although DS was initially hurt/angry, over time he forgave him and actually likes playing with Martin.

For DS birthday celebrations, I am inviting 5 kids for a day out. DS really wants Martin to come. I'm not so sure. On one hand, it is his birthday and feel it should be his choice. Also, I've been quite concerned about Martin bullying DS and perhaps it would be better to get him on side. DS is meant to be going on a school trip in June, for a week away and I considered cancelling it when the poisonous berries things came out.

On the other hand, I don't think he really deserves an invite and as I said, things are a bit awkward with the parents, I'm not sure how they'd respond.

AIBU to tell DS he can't come?

I can understand your reservations, that's quite extreme behaviour. Honestly? I would feel the same as you.

Hmm tricky one. DCs do fall in and out of favour during schooldays so if DS is keen on inviting this boy perhaps the antagonism is behind them.

Are 'Joe' or 'Fiona' also invited?

(I know it's difficult balancing details with discretion and appreciate you are using pseudonyms but just wonder if the details may still be identifiable).

Just to add, what if he behaves badly on the day out? It could really spoil it for your DS and be very uncomfortable for you too.

Well, quite. OP will be responsible for the others too.

Can you invite 'Martin' round with another DC after school one day, see how they get on and if 'Martin' settles fine and 'shares' DS?

Hang on, op has been on before with this about a year ago and is recycling her op again.

Making 'deadly' potions (almost all common garden berries are poisonous to humans btw), talk of assasination, cartoons with dripping blood and threatening to wee in people's drinking bottles (as a pose to actually, seriously trying to do it) are all pretty normal among Y4-5 boys who are best mates ime. Were Fiona/your ds were getting upset by this boys behaviour (you don't say they were)?

Trying to manipulate people to be best friends is also fairly common at this age, although generally more recognised as normal behaviour in girls (and girls are more subtle about how they go about it - less dripping daggers but more back-stabbing about who's got the best taste in clothes/shoes/music etc).

So I don't agree that his behaviour sounds particularly extreme but if you don't like him, don't invite him.

Difficult. Martin's behaviour makes me uncomfortable. It does way beyond "boys will be boys".

I think if my ds really wanted him to come I would be inclined to invite him (on the better with me than against me approach) UNLESS Fiona was also coming. As J & F are the older more establised friends and this boy has been deeply unpleasant to F I would not invite him to a party that F was at.

I am sure I read this story last year, so am assuming you are only giving the background about the pissing in a bottle and card as an example of why you aren't too keen on the other child.

At the end of the day, if you aren't happy with Martin then don't let him go, but you will have to manage the fallout of your DS and Martin when that happens.

Wow, I'm surprised to read that Barbarianmum. I've been teaching primary school aged children for nearly 20 years and have rarely come across behaviour like that. I'm not saying never, I can remember 2 children in particular but that is out of hundreds I've taught.

Aeroflotgirl that is not true. The events only happened at the end of last year, I posted about the xmas card and asked if I should speak to the school/parents. This is about DS' birthday party in a few weeks time.

Jostling for position and being possessive about friends though, yes, all the time!

It's funny how some people find this behaviour 'normal' and some don't. Myself, Fiona and Joe's parents were pretty freaked out about it at the time. I don't mean to pick on the kid but he presents himself as the other extreme which makes it even worse i.e. he is VERY charming, always complimenting adults - bit too over the top. Hope this doesn't derail the thread or gets misunderstood, but the school is in a fairly conservative part of London. I have had contact with some primary schools where kids have older siblings who are in 'gangs', and where the majority are allowed to play over 18 video games, and that kind of touch 'street talk' is more common. The kids at DS school are very innocent in comparison.

Fiona is invited but unfortunately Joe is not as they've not been playing together recently. I wonder if I should talk to Fiona's mum about this as we're quite good friends.

OddBodkins I'm pretty certain he won't behave badly on the day out. Like I said, he is VERY well behaved around adults. I have known him for many years and he came to DS' sleepover party last year. He was fine, except he kept following me around the house to tell me what a great party it was and what a wonderful human being I am!

I feel as though I have previously read half the OP, word for word.

i have seen this before on here

BarbarianMum when Martin went to Joe's house, Joe's mum specifically pointed out a bush in the garden and told the boys not to go near it as it had poisonous berries and they were planning to uproot it.

GooseyLoosey that's a good point actually. If Fiona's mum is not happy about Martin coming then I definitely won't invite him.

I posted about the poisonous berries/christmas card incident before, as in, should I speak to the teacher/parents about it. The issue here is whether or not to invite him to DS' birthday.

Making 'deadly' potions (almost all common garden berries are poisonous to humans btw), talk of assasination, cartoons with dripping blood and threatening to wee in people's drinking bottles (as a pose to actually, seriously trying to do it) are all pretty normal among Y4-5 boys who are best mates ime.

Really, that's normal for 9/10yos?

OP If a child had done that to another child, even if they subsequently got more friendly, I would be telling my dc to steer well clear. That is not normal behaviour imo. "Martin" sounds manipulative and a terrible influence. Difficult if DS really wants him to come, and I guess it has to be his choice for his birthday, but I would be generally working on getting distance from him.

Number3cometome I don't think there will be a fallout as DS can only invite 5 friends, there are many others he would invite if he could.

bialystockandbloom I'm with you on that. I started off telling DS to keep his distance, but DS would be a bit too extreme and whenever Martin tried to be friendly he'd say "remember, we're not friends." So I told him not to be so obvious about it, to remain polite and friendly, just not too close. Next thing you know they're playing together all the time

Oddbodkins I find that even harder to believe.

The boys at your school may not joke about wee/poo/willies and farting to you, but I assure you many will find these things funny.

Some will have read Harry Potter and 'making potions' is as old as the hills - even I used to do it back in the dark ages

Our (nice, middle class) school has a cartoon club, now working on animated cartoons. Almost all the offerings revolved around cartoon men being humerously squashed by bulldozers, falling off cliffs, bombs exploding etc. These kids may not be playing GTA or COD but they will be playing minecraft and skylanders and Mario Karts - lots of 'cartoon' (as a pose to graphic) violence there. They are doing the Romans in Y4 at the moment so quite a bit of artwork on battles, gladiators etc

The only thing that strikes me as odd about the OP's description of this child is his duplicity. The boys I know (and I know a lot) are only too pleased to share their drawings/jokes/plans with you.

barbarianmum making potions, acting out battles etc is one thing, but encouraging another child to put poisonous berries and piss in a bottle and trick another child drinking it, writing cards about assassinating that child etc, is something very different.

"remember, we're not friends"
Mastering the subtle complexities of social etiquette is a work in progress for 9yos

Yes bialystock it is normal as a game or joke. It really is. An actual attempt to poison someone not so much.

I've run 'deadly plants' walks in the local woods that always gets fully booked (w adults mostly), spring flowers is popular too but far less well attended. Alnwick Gardens has a very popular 'Poison Garden.' Interestingly running walks about medicinal plants involves many of the same species as the deadly ones.