AIBU to quit my job and retrain as a solicitor?

[Moobieboobie]

Should I not? I hate my job (civil service) although fairly well paid and have always hankered after joining the legal profession. But, I am almost 40 and have three children would I even have a chance at getting a training contract? I can self fund the GDL and LPC, but would need to have a training contract in place once the qualifications are completed. Am I totally unrealistic as I will be competing with lots of young'uns!?

I always try to make sure meetings start at 9am not 5pm. People work better when they aren't tired. That doesn't mean sometimes things are urgent and have to be done when they have to be done but at least once you're more senior you get more control over timings. Sometimes I say to clients I am too tired to do this properly now. I'm going to bed if that feels the right thing to do.

weare deals are almost always completed at 11pm at night (or later) and that's nothing to do with the number of staff on the job. Odd comment from someone in the know.

If you are completely determined I am sure that you could get some form of training contract. Before you apply though I would strongly suggest that you get plenty of work experience so that you can see what the reality is before you commit to it. If you're still set on going down this path, I'd strongly recommend that you get the training contract lined up before shelling out any money for the GDL and LPC. If you're good enough to get a TC, you're good enough to get one before these "qualifications"! If you're not, it's better to know before you spend the money (not to mention putting yourself through the stress of the GDL/LPC with kids etc).

I think the point has been more than hammered home on this thread, but it's an extremely challenging profession. Unless you work for a big City firm/luck out working for a good company you will earn peanuts when considered from a £/HR perspective, you will often work with and for some horrendous people and I really REALLY cannot overemphasise the effect that the hours will have on you/your family. To echo some of the above posters, I often work 100hr+ weeks (those hours quickly add up when you work weekends/through the night!). Before I started I expected this, but what I didn't expect was the effect it has on your relationships etc. Seriously think about whether you will be ok with, potentially, not seeing your family (and how they would feel about this) or how you would feel about friends falling out with you because you are never free to meet up (because people outside professional services rarely understand that you are simply unable to JUST GO HOME even if it is 3am and you haven't been home for months and your DH is threatening to divorce you and the family goldfish has just died etc etc ) or how you will feel when your mum is crying down the phone because you can't make it for her birthday etc (you get the message!). If after all of this you still REALLY want it, then go for it and do it sooner rather than later...but REALLY think about the reality of what it will be like and whether that's actually something you want, rather than an Ally McBeal/Damages/Suits kind of idea about what it is .

The OP is 40, she doesn't think it will be Ally McBeal.

I loved my law degree, and the semi-colon type of chat. From observation, I'd say the mature students on the course have found it easier to get training contracts than the early twenty somethings. As a pp said, it does help to bring your former career to this one. I know a 44yo who just got an employment based tc last week!

The life of a big city firm trainee gives me the heebies. (What kind of creepy folk are going along with that show? It's like kids down the mines...) There are other training contracts - you're just going to be fighting hard for them. I went to a big interview day in Birmingham where only 3 of us were students - everyone else was a paralegal just trying to get a foot on the ladder.

OP I was just looking back at some of your previous posts. What strikes me most is that you say you hate your job. You then say The civil service is not what it used to be, thus my conclusion was that the legal profession cannot be worse.........

I have a very good friend who was a fast stream civil service entrant and is now in the Senior Civil Service in London. We moan a lot about our jobs and share a lot of detail. She is unhappy but time and time again she tells me that she would hate my job even more and doesn't know how I've coped with it this long!

I know what it's like to get fed up with where you are and think that it might be refreshing to start with a clean slate in a new profession. However with law you have to start again from the very bottom. You may not realise until you don't have it any more quite how much you value being respected and having authority and seniority in your current job. For me it's only having got to that stage that makes it bearable.

Unless you have an absolutely overriding love of the law (not just a "hankering") then my advice would be to look for a lateral move (consultancy, private sector management, different part of the civil service) and get your new start that way.

Perhaps one thing that might help would be to make a list of all the details of your job that cause you to hate it and categorise them like this:

1. Things that I can change while staying in this job
2. Things that I can never change while staying in this job
3. Things that would definitely not be a factor in a law job
4. Things that would be just the same in a law job.

Good luck with your decision. I do hope that you come back to tell us what you decided.

AddToBasket The life of a big city firm trainee gives me the heebies. (What kind of creepy folk are going along with that show? It's like kids down the mines...)

Because its exciting, you are getting a chance to get involved in the highest value work with the highest profile partners and clients, simply opportunities you don't get in provincial firms. Its not like kids down the mines, we are talking about fully grown adults who have studied for years and had work placements to ensure they can cope with this, who have been through a highly competitive interview process. If they can't hack it, then its two years of their lives and they have an excellent cv to show for it to take to a slightly less demanding environment. And its the same in any large or capital city in most of the world - the Amsterdam office is the same, so is the Berlin office.

Not everyone wants to be the same or do the same thing. There are pressures in every law job - you might think you have found a nice firm in Birmingham or Manchester or wherever, until you meet the psychopathic partner who makes your life a misery, or the piece of work which means you do have to work all weekend and cancel your social life...

The life of a big city firm trainee gives me the heebies. (What kind of creepy folk are going along with that show? It's like kids down the mines...)

My DH was one of those creepy folk and he loved it; even more so now he's partner.

I can vouch for the fact that there are plenty of psycho partners in the regions (not me of course, I'm nice ). The regional firms face massive pressures. If you think you're going to have an easy life, you're in for a shock.

I'll echo atticuslaw. I left a City firm and moved to the regions (albeit to an international firm)...the hours are every bit as bad and sometimes worse as you don't have the huge teams involved/as much admin support! It may be that smaller firms are nicer/more relaxed places, or maybe not, but I think there will still be greater pressure than the majority of jobs so you'd have to be super committed wherever you go!

I would echo what some PPs have recommended re: work experience. I think the costs and risks involved in the career change you are considering are too great to take on without some certainty that you would actually enjoy the job that you (hope to) get at the end of it. Hopefully you know employment lawyers and can arrange some informal shadowing. Even just a couple of days would give you an idea of what your new day to day life would be.

I don't think your age is necessarily an issue. I think your issue will be if you want flexibility / family-friendly hours. The legal profession isn't great at that. True part-time work is hard to find (and at firms like mine, there is a perception that you have to earn a part-time role by putting in a good number of full-time years first). Some fields are worse than others. Working on your days off is common. You need childcare arrangements that will tolerate unexpectedly long-hours (though all of this does vary from one field to another and between private practice and in-house). I wish I had considered this as a factor when deciding to go into law. If you are happy to work full-time, long-hours etc. (as a number of previous posters are) then this won't be an issue.

As others have said, the financial rewards (lack of) may be surprising. I imagined it would be a bit more lucrative than it is. Certainly at my firm salaries are declining (those at my level earn considerably less now than my more senior colleagues did at my level of PQE a few years ago). There is very well paid work out there but the demands are enormous (too much for me). The only career progression is into partnership which requires even more commitment (much more than I'm willing to give).

Having a job to fall back on? I raised an eyebrow when I read about that above. A career break is career suicide where I am. There's really no going back to it after any kind of absence.

(I'm a solicitor at a large national firm.)

It's not quite like down the mines as the pay is pretty good and can be more like a mine owner. My ancestors were miners.It is hard to explain how into work you can be and what a pleasure it can be, about the sense of achievement, the adrenalin and indeed sometimes desire to see something through. I work because I love it. It is no worse than any hobby I do that is how good it is. It is easier now I keep all the money and work for myself rather than for someone else's profit. However if you aren't into working long hours as a trainee then you need to pick your firm carefully.

Addtobasket, I agree, the hours young people seem to work, well I'm reminded of the death of Moritz Erhardt. Ok so he wasn't a solicitor but it sounds likea si ilar culture

Re the treatment of City trainees. There is (broadly) a distinction between the expectations of City firm trainees and those of other types of firms - this is reflected in the pay. It's perfectly valid to draw attention to it (and plenty of posters before me did so).

Any way you cut it, it is creepy: telling folk to 'hack it' and creating an environment where people can't progress properly if they want to see their children before bedtime. Friends and family working for Magic Circle firms report that there are regularly trainees sobbing in the loos, and all the other hardcore stories. We/they/everyone knows that is a product of a particular environment.

The issue is a feminist one: those at the top will always say 'it has to be done like this' partly because it excludes carers/disrupted career-breakers and reduces competition for the top slots. Which to men (and women) free to work their arses off, is just great. It really doesn't have to be done like that but there's a culture that It Must Be So. Hopefully, at some point, something approaching time-monitoring legislation will address it in the same way it has addressed maternity leave, and how that could 'never work' for firms.

To the posters bothered about my post keen to tell me I'm in for a shock: I am a grown up with a previous career. I do know about bad bosses, working over time or being let down by colleagues and put upon by clients. I have no illusions about work in general (or my firm in particular - I've worked there before). No-one on this thread thinks that any office life (particularly training) is some sunny upland. The OP doesn't need to get beasted in the City to train as a solicitor, that's all.

I was a solicitor for 7 years, plus 2 years of training contract - I quit to join the civil service!! . The money is poor compared with my old London corporate salary but I've never been happier. Work is so much easier - no stress, much much shorter hours. Honestly if you really want to do this, do some work experience first as I think the reality may be very different from what you imagine.

Lots of posts here saying 'but the money is good' but from where I'm sitting the pay looks distinctly average for the hours required.

That really depends on how well you do though doesn't it. I earn well into the six figures working part time (today I have mainly been on another thread considering how I'd cope if the power went out and whether baked hedgehog would be edible). That isn't "distinctly average". In most good sized regional firms you'd roughly expect partners to be on £75k+, associates to be on 45k-80k, assistants to be on £25k-£50k. Its not bad pay, its simply a profession where you have to slog your guts out to get to the top. Once you're at the top you then have to fight to stay there but you can start to get a bit more flexibility.

At the OP's age though she isn't likely to be at the top for very long since it generally takes 15-20 years post qualification and she's not even done law school yet.

The pay is potentially several hundred thousand a year to about £1m to £2m in the firm I was at and the one my daughter's at. I think that's pretty good and you make that pay and in return you work hard. Or you work somewhere less well paid and probably work shorter hours.

There is no set number of working hours in life which are a nirvana. If you like your work as much as your play (as I do) and now my children are teenagers working lots of hours can be as happy as if I had 50% of the week off looking at roses. We all decide what is the right balance for us in life. We reap what we sow.

Despite that I don't think very long hours all the time get the best out of most people and I like a good few others try to ensure we treat others well, time meetings for sensible times etc. I let a client go off a call a few hours earlier as her children were shouting and needed her and that by the way could equally be her husband (the lower earner of them who does as much if not more than she does re, their children).

Also there are lots of options in law. One of my daughters is an in house solicitor. People move around too between solicitor and barrister even. I think it's a really good career. I hope I can do another 30 years

Lots of food for thought.....thank you all. There really is a lot to consider in relation to next steps. I have had some exposure over the years to legal work albeit not formal work experience, however I do have an insight. I had not appreciated the sacrifices that are required by women with families in order to progress.

I will explore in more detail as suggested alternative roles which will not require full on study and an initial investment of £20k plus. Consultancy etc might be an option so will consider that also. I do realise what I would be giving up by way of flexible working, not so final salary pension etc. However, change is vital for me as I feel I have gone as far as I can go in the civil service and with the upcoming election things will only get worse. The prospect of being scrutinised by a 28 year old boss is also far from attractive after many years overseeing large teams/departments so a rethink maybe in order!

That will always be a problem with a career change though since you'd be going back to being new in your field. If you became a trainee at age 45ish then in all likelihood you'll be being bossed around and made to do photocopying and bundle pagination and having your draft letters rewritten by a 28 year old assistant. Your previous career experience won't count for anything.

How many 100 hour weeks do you have to work, whilst earning 45k as an associate though? Even if you only averaged 60 hour weeks as an associate the per hour rate is not great. And logically, not everyone who is slogging their guts out can ever reap the rewards. This is especially true for people like the OP entering the profession later who just don't have the years to put in the groundwork.

Unless you're lucky it really is difficult with a family. You might get lucky but there will always be someone saying you're not pulling your weight if you go home before your Dcs go to bed, particularly as a trainee and NQ. I've had many many occasions where I've left the house before the Dcs are awake and not returned until they're in bed two or three nights in a ro

I haven't had time to RTFT but I disagree with some of the comments made. I don't think it's that difficult to get a training contract so long as you have good academics, there are hundreds of firms, not just london, who would pay for the GDL and LPC, and I find it to be a very interesting job and not one being farmed out to paralegals. The pay is great too. I work for a top 10 global firm but I'm in the regions so don't really work City hours (9-6.30/7 is usual) and I do commercial work (real estate investment).

The main problem with the law is that it is very hierarchical and so - at big firms - you are only ever as good as your PQE. So you will not make partner before you're 10 years PQE no matter your age and other experience, and so you will always be behind. However I earn £40k as an NQ in birmingham so doesn't seem to me to be a bad salary even if you are 40

I love my job and look forward to going. I'm busy but not under massive pressure and my jokes aren't bad at all at one of the biggest firms in birmingham. I say go for it!

OP come june/July I would just Apple for training contracts. Do the forms well and read the FT before your interviews. They recruit two+ years in advance so if you get one do the GDL. If you don't, don't!

OP come june/July I would just Apple for training contracts. Do the forms well and read the FT before your interviews. They recruit two+ years in advance so if you get one do the GDL. If you don't, don't!

Agree with BigPaws' advice here.

All this discussion about quality of life / work / salary etc is academic if you can't get a training contract (though do disagree with BigPaws' on the ease or otherwise of obtaining a training contract - with the experience I have of hiring short term paralegals, outstandingly amazing in every way, and with no prospects / success in obtaining a training contract...).