to think, you did this, so stop complaining.

[snowmancarrot]

My friend has a ds with her now ex husband. She, by being obstructive and various other ways, made contact with his father as difficult as possible. Examples include, changing the days last minute, only agreeing to time when he would have been at work, trying to have him arrested for harassment when he was trying to arrange to see his son, saying he could only see him at her house. The list is endless. Lots of minor things to make sure it was unpleasant each time he was allowed to see his ds.

After months of aggravation from her he's said he can't drag their child through anymore of her emotional blackmail and doesn't have contact anymore.

Aibu to think that she can't then sit complaining about it to me, when it was her who wanted to make his life a misery as she believed he had made hers.

Maybe I need to cut her out.

Hardly the same is it BertieBotts?

You know your friend OP, you've seen her behaviour and heard the reasoning from her own mouth. If you think she's got what she wanted, if she manipulated this situation in her own admittance then you should tell her to stfu moaning about it then tell why and walk away without a backwards glance.

She's your friend and you know her best, if what she's said and done and told you has led you to believe she's unreasonable then she probably is. Whatever way you say she's exhausting you so that's just a good a reason to walk away then any.

People reap what they sow eventually. I know several shitty absent fathers and one malicious mother who are reaping that now their children are adults. You cannot make up for lost time and causing pain to your child, and once children are old enough they will realise the truth- it may take a long while especially if said parents are/were toxic, but it will come out.

If he's made a lot of effort and she's made it difficult, then she's not thinking about her son's emotional welfare and that is cruel. Children have a right to see their parents if it is safe for them to do so. When he grows up, she'll have to explain why she did this to him and he won't we happy with her. It's going to cause him a lot of pain not seeing his father.

I always wonder exactly how cut and dried these types of situations are tbh.

I know for a fact that my ex tells everyone who will listen what an uncooperative nasty bitch I am because I "won't let him see the kids." In reality, he hasn't asked to see them since last summer, when he suddenly decided he wanted to be "superdad" in an effort to push a reconciliation. I admit that I wouldn't let him see them unsupervised and only in a public place, but that was on advice from SS as he was abusive to them and to me, so it was to keep us safe. But of course, his family and friends believe him regarding the abuse, as he's told them it didn't happen.

So, yeah, things are not always straight forward. Hard to really make any type of judgement.

Has she given you a reason why she wanted contact at er parents house? Is there a genuine safety issue?

The father needs to initiate court or mediation, not walk away...If he is genuine.

I'm the same Alice.

I won't let my dH see the children without supervision. I've got very good reasons for this but I don't want to make it 'official' because to do so would cause unequivocal harm to dH and I don't want to hurt him. I just want the children to be safe!

She said he was harassing her. That's how.

He was harassing her I suppose. Because he wanted to see his ds.

She lived with her parents and said it was too disruptive having the child taken out by his dad.

It's all a big mess. I did feel sorry for her initially.

The father needs to initiate court or mediation, not walk away...If he is genuine.

Agree. To just give up is wrong, although if she's as unreasonable and conniving as she sounds and is prepared to lie and manipulate to sabotage him and discredit him, it's not difficult to understand why he might just throw the towel and walk away. Especially if contact has been so sporadic and tightly controlled so far that he hasn't even been able to build a proper bond with the child. The child may not even be properly aware of who he is at this stage.

Just looking at the information in the OP I think YANBU

The same thing has happened to an acquaintance of ours and while I'm sure faults during the marriage were down to both of them she did make it very difficult for him to see the children

Rather than cutting contact with her completely perhaps when a bit of time has gone passed you could chat to her about it further, she may as other people have said have very good reasons or doing this or she might be open to reinstating contact

Is she open to gentle persuasion ? It may not work but telling her gently how is hurting her son, and the impact on him may give her something to think about. If it does nt work you you can walk away with a clean conscious.

If you go in all guns blazing it will reinforce her behaviour

I get help wondering if her parents are encouraging her bad behaviour.

How old is the child now and is there an actual father/son relationship and bond there?

My DP is in a similar situation with his exP. However, my DP persists in seeing his DCs regardless of his exP sabotage, to create and maintain a relationship with his DCs. ( His own father disappeared from his life for something around 7 years - he/DM, Dsis literally had no idea where DF was; this was so traumatic for DP that he won't do it to his DCs ). I do feel terrible for DP, when his ex continually sabotages his efforts.
I would be inclined to support your friends exP in that situation, but maybe you are not close enough to him to do so.
It all sounds terribly sad; the children suffer the most, but also the estranged partner.

My mother continually used us to get at my father - though I don't know what would have happened if she'd tried to stop contact completely.

Those people saying he should pursue it through court, my father was faced with the choice of letting her trash him to whatever she wanted, and trash him to whoever she wanted, or making his teenage children stand up in court to say their mother was a liar.

He choose the former, to protect us.

I was quite angry with him when I found out later, not least because some of her lies had been about me.

But on reflection I know there's never been a good answer to her behaviour. She immediately uses other people as human shields whenever she's challenged on anything, and her children's welfare meant no more to her during the divorce than it did during her affair - for which she carried along my 10-yr-old sister as cover.

Because she always puts other people in the middle, there's no way of pushing back on her behaviour without hurting them first.

My dp went through similar with his ew. Went to court and got the contact arrangements. Fought tooth and nail to see his dcs.

He was arrested 3 times for turning up to collect them at the agreed time and date.

He was assaulted in front of the dcs (age 5 and 3) by his ews new dp.

His dm was spat on and verbally abused.

The dcs got to the point where they were so distressed by the thought of him turning up and what might happen that he walked away. He couldn't afford to go back to court. He had just had his house repossessed because the maintance payments he had to make (£100 pw 20 years ago) left him with about £120 a week to pay bills and eat etc.

He was suffering from depression and it was harming the dcs mental health with the stress his ew put them all under.

So sometimes it is too difficult to fight the good fight indefinitely. She would never have changed and he didn't want the dcs to be affected anymore than what they already had been.

maybe she's concerned about him having access to her child.
If that were the case she'd be celebrating having won, rather than bellyaching about the fact that he no longer wants to play her stupid little games.

It's so sad to hear about other people going through similar. I used to buy into the "he's a dead beat dad who doesn't want to see.his child" but the more I thought about it, the more none of it made sense.

If it was reversed and a father said "you can only see your child at my house with my parents who hate you" they'd be labeled abusive/controlling.

I think the behaviour worsened after she believed he was seeing someone else. She thinks that it's justified. I really think she's convinced herself that her actions were normal.

In my (male) friend's case, there was far more behind it. His ex was physically and emotionally abusive to him. (Bigger than him. Beat him up.) She told me that he was divorcing her but it was the other way around. DH and I tried to help her to have the family home and her DD to livevwith her. It turned out that she signed the house over because she didn't want her DD living with her. She wanted no more than 50% of time with DD and preferably a lot less! Meanwhile her DD was developing serious depression and insomnia.

All I did was text 'please don't talk about your divorce/ex with me anymore' and I was dropped like a stone. She went from calling by/texting or phoning me or DH every day to arrange time together, to nothing. She couldn't ever (still can't, apparently) function without perpetuating the lies about him, because without them she would have to admit she had/has serious problems, which she refuses to accept or get help for.

Sometimes the blame can be very one sided, and while her ex is not perfect as a partner, he is a good dad and is left to deal with the emotional problems his ex has wreaked. I guess in their case the DV meant he got custody. Still doesn't make his DD well.

I'm pretty sure that anyone that hears my ex h talk would think that I have done similar. I haven't though and I'm doing my best to get things sorted. He has behaved terribly and 'on principle ' refused any contact offered until we can get it sorted properly in a way that ensures DS is safe, not neglected or emotionally damaged any further . I know he has told people how awful I am being but he's also failed to tell them all the terrible terrible issues that I and authorities have. There's two sides to every story and people may not divulge all of the story for fear of judgement or being seen as a failure. Life is never as simple as it seems on the surface.

My partner went through this with his ex and DS. She claims he walked away easily too... funny that.

She doesn't see that any of her actions effectively forced my partner's hand. He would very much love a relationship with his son, and we have fought tooth and nail for it, with no success. After years of trying, he has given up, a hard decision because of the way his ex portrayed the effect my partner had on their son.

We have had to counter- her moving across the country, having him arrested several times, telling him (and the courts) she cheated while they were together and DS wasn't actually his (courts wouldn't listen until we paid to have a dna test done to prove he was his son) refusal to attend contact hearings, ignoring summons to court, moving again and changing her name, marrying and divorcing twice (now thrice) allowing sporadic contact sessions, demanding we take him permanently (then demanding him back because she couldn't afford to live without him) persistently giving excuses such as bed wetting, suffering at school, mental health regressions following any form of contact (none of which were backed up, even by the school) and claiming that he started smearing poo everywhere (at 8 years old) because the emotional turmoil was too much for him.

We have tried for full custody, pay maintenance, tried sending (but now deposit money into an account set up for him) birthday and holiday presents. We didn't walk away easily (partner definitely didn't, it has given him a hellstorm of his own issues).

You should tell your friend to stop only giving a toss about herself to the detriment of her DC development and life. She is not the one who wins or loses here, but her DC are the ones suffering. Lose her as a friend, then maybe she will notice she is the one that is going wrong.

Jaded let me reassure you that if I were your friend I would support you the best way I could. Even if it turned out you were lying to me (it was the female friend who told me the truth eventually, I didn't hear the bad things from her ex) I'd just say I couldn't discuss your divorce/ex but would still offer friendship and company if wanted and want to support you and your DC.

I know very well there are always 2 sides. I stuggle in my own marriage and with my own MH sometimes which is why I couldnt talk about hwr situation anymore - she was dragging me down with her. She was irrational and would constantly rant and shout about him. You don't sound like that.

But would people hearing you talk think you'd done similar, Jaded? I certainly don't, on what you've said.

The OP is getting this from the person actually doing it, not from the ex.

I think unless you have actually lived with an evil manipulating lying ex in your life who will do whatever they can to withhold contact for no reason other than they are pissed off their relationship ended, it is very hard to comprehend. So although posters are saying 'two sides to the story' etc I fully believe that what the op has written is true.

Op yanbu at all to want to end this friendship.

DP was the child in a similar situation.

His DF spent almost 3 years going through the courts, because despite having access, DP's DM made it very difficult. She would arrange things during his access time and say that DP couldn't go because he had to attend football club or see XYZ on that day. His DF kept pursuing it but in the end, at about age 11, DP wrote a letter to his DF saying his didn't want to see him. His DF had been fighting through the court since DP was about 8, so I guess by this point DP didn't really want to see a man who he had barely seen for 3 years. But in his eyes, and from what his DM said, it was because his DF didn't want to see him. So when he wrote to his DF, he was under the impresson that his DF had hardly bothered for 3 years. His DF stepped back after that, continuing to pay child maintenance each month until DP was 18 but stopped pursuing access.

DP went pretty much no-contact with his DM at 18. At 26, his DF got in touch. DP was apprehensive but agreed to meet up. His DF brought along all the letters, evidence of the court dates, evidence of leaving his DM a house when DP was a baby (which she sold but DP had no idea about this - they lived in a caravan so fuck knows what she did with the money) and evidence of paying child maintenance (which his DM had kept secret - DP hardly had any money growing up). It wasn't until that day that DP found out how much his DF has tried. He had always thought his DF didn't want him because his DM had fed him a load of lies all through childhood. He came away quite upset that he had missed out all those years with his DF. Thankfully they now have a good relationship and see one another regularly. But he missed out on 18 or so years of his dad.

YANBU.
This happened to a friend of mine: he also walked away to save his children from being torn in two. So terribly sad and they are NC now as she filled their ears with lies for so long.