"Benefits are a lifestyle choice for so many these days"

[Bellerina2]

I'm on the bus and two women behind me are having a long conversation about perceived benefit cheats and one of them just said the above phrase. WIBU to hit her over the head with a rolled up copy of the Guardian??

But seriously, it's so depressing that people think this. Well done to the government and likes of the Sun and Daily Mail for convincing people that those on benefits are leading some sort of charmed life

Helena, bread in moderation does NOT cause obesity. Weight gain/loss is a simple equation of calories consumed V calories used.

OnlyLovers, interesting points and I can visualise what you mean, but how is someone fit to raise a family if they are incapable of putting together a simple meal? If they are so de-motivated they can't learn how to feed their children well, what chance do the children have of growing up healthy and breaking this destructive cycle? By giving these people money to buy junk-food, alcohol and cigarettes we're reinforcing their bad lifestyle choices.

Everyone has choices in life... we all get free education, chance for government-funded further study, free contraception, choice of careers and professions. We all have the choice of being responsible, establishing a career and saving money before having kids.

theboat i know my body better than you do thanks.

Glad you mentioned contraception as they have started to cut corners there.

www.pbiforum.net/en/pbi/rd/237/Morningside-Healthcare-launches-generic-contraceptives.htm

Why don't they have a cap on how much you get when you have kids?!? Any normal, sane person looks at their finances before popping out kids. There's no way DH and I could afford 12 kids on our much higher than average salaries.

Why should you be free to have as many kids as you want just because you're on benefits?

theboat, 'how is someone fit to raise a family if they are incapable of putting together a simple meal? If they are so de-motivated they can't learn how to feed their children well, what chance do the children have of growing up healthy and breaking this destructive cycle?'

You're answering your own questions, really, aren't you? These problems are indeed a cycle and a social problem.

'Everyone has choices in life... we all get free education, chance for government-funded further study, free contraception, choice of careers and professions. We all have the choice of being responsible, establishing a career and saving money before having kids.'

Do you genuinely think that everyone has the same choices, in the sense of everyone starting from the same point?

'By giving these people money to buy junk-food, alcohol and cigarettes we're reinforcing their bad lifestyle choices.'

'these people'? Your language is hateful.

SolidGoldBrass

You are talking about Keynsian economics which doesn't really work anymore. Economists know this.

This is because the world is a lot more complicated now than during the heyday of Keynes.

saying 'we all have a choice' assumes a level playing field - it isn't - it's wrong to say we all have equal access to the same standards of education, healthcare and careers

Or don't but the free for all is OVER. Be very assured of that!

How do you think people with disabilities feel about your statement?

Choosing to have a large family if you can't support them. Why should the tax payer step in and provide for these people.
Once the parameters have shifted for one group, they start to shift for others, it could be your little group next. Hitler pointed out that the best way to take over a peoples was to erode their rights by tiny almost imperceptible cuts, in this way the people will not see those rights and freedoms until past the point at which changes cannot be reversed.
Before anyone shouts Godwin, look at history.

Not sure suggesting the tax payer shouldn't pay for large families the parents can't afford merits similarities with Hitler.

Jesus Dawn. Is there any point at which you think anyone should incur any kind of financial hardship for any bad decision they make, at any point in their lives?

And again. This thread. Is.Not.About.Disabled.People.

This thread is about Disabled people, as has been pointed out at regular intervals, if we're talking about benefits, then disabled people are included in that.
Other than that, no, I don't think financial penury is the right thing for bad decisions. I think that education, opportunity and understanding go a great deal further than unreasonable and in many cases (see the earlier sanctions lists) unfair punishments.

'Do you genuinely think that everyone has the same choices, in the sense of everyone starting from the same point?'
No I don't think we are all equal in terms of intelligence, upbringing, role models, academic ability. But using your disadvantaged background as an excuse not to do well in school, enter a profession or make responsible life-choices is a complete cop-out. I know many people who came from very disadvantaged backgrounds but worked hard and succeeded in life. They have never claimed benefits and some say the environment they grew up in was the inspiration they needed to work hard and create a different life for themselves and their families.

Other than that, no, I don't think financial penury is the right thing for bad decisions.

I'll admit, I'm at a loss for words.

MillieV

''You are talking about Keynsian economics which doesn't really work anymore. Economists know this.''

What, even the ones who are Keneysians?

Dawn - you are sounding very foolish. Hitler.... If you really think that no one should be responsible for any decisions they make well I really do despair.

You keeping talking about education and support as though it's something new. What if despite education and support people make crap decision time and time again - are you seriously suggesting yet more money is thrown ast these issues, after all they need 'support and education' and do it goes on.

Maybe Dawn would like to fund these people - no, sorry. She expects others to do that..

Meh I've been comparing DC to Hitler for ages. Look at the slew of benefit programs that have ramped up in recent weeks. Dehuminising 'these' people (someone should really come up with a poem about these people to make kids behave) so nobody cares what happens.

It is true.. stamp one group of people into the ground and it's just a matter of time before its moved on to you.

There is a massive divide between those of us who think we should help ourselves and those who think some munificent state will always provide. All I can say is in life you tend to be happier if you provide for yourself.

If Labour or the Tories do try to ensure more people are self reliant as is the aim of both parties that will do most people most good.

Once the parameters have shifted for one group, they start to shift for others, it could be your little group next.

My little group have already been clobbered. We've lost child benefit. In this instance, the government didn't care whether you had 2 or 10 children. They just took it. We were one of the first groups to be targeted.

I have lost Child Benefit too...

We were targeted first too. We are both working.

These comparisons with Hitler are really quite offensive IMHO.

I remember the day very well. It was 4 October 2010, at their Autumn Conference. Couldn't believe what I was hearing on the Today Programme. Every one seemed to be cheering about what a wonderfully fair policy it was. That was about the time I joined mumsnet and I vividly remember many on here cheering about what a wonderfully fair policy is was also. So, we've already lost plenty. £200 a month gone and yes, we really notice the loss too.

i dont think we all have the same choices. some people are better educated/accedmic than others. theres always going to be people who cant be employed for different reasons. there are going to be people who will always be in a min paid job and people who are stuck in the middle where there wage is to high for help but not high enough to be ok and have a reasonable standard of living. then there are also high earners.

i dont think benefits are a life style choice for most. people do what they need to do to live.

George - ok so you lost child benefit but surely you still have your own salary to fall back on?