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AIBU?

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Original poster

To ask if this is allowed

48 replies

BikerTales · 08/03/2015 20:26

Have NC for this as the circumstances may be very recognisable. Am posting here for Sunday evening traffic, hoping there might be some Scottish law experts about.

DD1 had a weekend job. At work she was allowed to use the facilities (in her own time), the deal being that appropriate costs would be charged against earnings.

[Important to know for later in this saga, she often used her own equipment (mine really, I paid for it) before/during/after work, so often kept it there. Mostly fairly inexpensive pieces, but also one large expensive item.]

Her job came to rather an abrupt end this weekend. Although the circumstances were totally beyond her control, she had let them down rather badly, and we totally understand that a smallish business has no room for unreliability.
Fair enough. When they told her this, they also told her that she owed them an outstanding sum for use of facilities.
Again, fair enough, she doesn't at all dispute paying her debts, except that they haven't given her a bill, haven't told her when she racked up this outstanding amount (they say they keep a record of use, so should be able to say), have simply told her a total (hundreds) and that she must pay cash.

Then they told her they were keeping her equipment until she pays!

I'm really shocked! It's not just that she hasn't got hundreds of pounds to give them, in one go (if she really does owe such a large sum, I can and will pay, although will want a proper account and won't pay cash) it's the fact that they have taken her/our property.

A local police person told me that the money owed was a civil matter, but that the employers taking property was theft and I should report it on 101.
This I did, but the person I spoke to on the advice line said that, as DD had been happy to take this equipment to work in the first place, her ex-employers weren't stealing it, by locking it up and refusing to give it back. They said the whole thing was a civil matter and their advice was to give the ex-employers the cash they claim my DD owes.

I find that so hard to believe. Can that really be correct? Is there really nothing I can do?

OP posts:
tomandizzymum · 08/03/2015 20:31

Facilities? I'm lost what facilities do people use at work other than toilets? I must be very dense!

Waffles80 · 08/03/2015 20:33

Think along lines of gym / music studio / practice space, I would think.

Sounds extremely complicated. She need to speak to a solicitor and certainly I ask for a specific invoice.

dancemom · 08/03/2015 20:33

It's difficult to give an opinion without more information

notnaice · 08/03/2015 20:37

Facilities costing hundreds of pounds, using lots of equipment. The mind boggles.

It's difficult to comment on this as it is so vague. On the face of it it does sound ur of the employer, but why did they allow her to rack up a bill of hundreds in the first place?

CombineBananaFister · 08/03/2015 20:41

Can't offer advice but it would seem odd that they are allowed to keep property that is not theirs in lieu of payment for facilites unless there was some sort of contract/agreement surely.
Also, as you say, a clear invoice and breakdown of the charges should be given as they would to any customer - is your daughter young? do you think they are being a bullyish and that they wouldn't do it with someone older?
BTW refreshing to hear you not making excuses for her unreliability n the circumstances. I'd go in and challenge them, think they'r being a bit heavy-handed.

Nativity3 · 08/03/2015 20:43

Think more info is needed!

sooperdooper · 08/03/2015 20:57

Can you explain in a bit more detail, it's hard to say as your OP is a little vague, what facilities/equipment has she used & why did they terminate her contract?

Purplehonesty · 08/03/2015 21:07

Riding stables? She took her own tack and had lessons and used the schools whilst not working?

I would go up there and speak to the owner and say you want a breakdown of what she owes and when it was from.
If they cannot provide this don't pay and demand your equipment back. Take dh with you.
If costs were supposed to be offset from wages they should have been deducting it as she went along.
Sounds a bit like sour grapes to me...

ghostyslovesheep · 08/03/2015 21:13

I'm thinking horses?

tomandizzymum · 08/03/2015 21:14

I would agree with purple honesty, also are you sure people can lock up your property? That doesn't sound right to me! I wouldn't think it's excatly theft but I cannot believe it's completely legal.

Viviennemary · 08/03/2015 21:19

Under the law as it stands you are not allowed to keep somebody's property even if they owe you money. It's illegal. I found this out on Judge Rinder so it must be right!

CatsBollocks · 08/03/2015 21:20

It sounds like a yard owner and horses to me. If it is this and she's been using the arena though I can't see that costing hundreds of pounds unless she's damaged the surface/jumps or something like that.

Original poster
BikerTales · 08/03/2015 21:20

Sorry, I know I am being very cryptic. I'm worried that DD would be instantly recognisable to people who know her, if I described her job and place of work. So not sure how best to clarify.

The facilities that she was allowed to use were the same facilities that clients would use, and DD quite rightly would be expected to pay for this. The deal was that, instead of paying as she used, the employers kept a record and deducted the value from potential pay. Is that called paying in kind?

DD has never had a problem with paying her way, and indeed could reasonably expect to be given a bill at the end. She didn't expect the total to be so great and would like a proper bill or account.
The total is about double the most she expected, so she doesn't have that amount of money. She does have enough money to pay half now and, if it does turn out that she owes this whole huge amount, would need to pay the rest over the next few weeks. She has today been offered another job elsewhere, so could have the income to do this.

The equipment, which I suppose is technically my property as I paid for, could be used by my daughter at work or in her own spare time. She did often keep it at work, as do other employees, however her ex-employers have locked it up and won't return it to either DD or, when I went and asked, to me.

Ironically, one piece of this equipment would be vital to her possible new job, as they do not supply it!

" is your daughter young? do you think they are being a bully"

DD is legally an adult now, but yes, young and still a dependent. I am sure ex-employers would deny bullying, but DD did come home in the throes of an asthma attack and in a bit of a state. I did go and see the ex-employers and asked for our property, but they were unrelenting, refused to give an account of the money they say DD owes and said that they wanted cash.

I am so sorry if I'm still being too cryptic - I don't really know how to explain all this.I have never encountered this sort of scenario before and it all feels rather surreal. I couldn't believe that the police could do nothing!

OP posts:
WineIsMyMainVice · 08/03/2015 21:24

She needs to ask for a break down of the charges - not you as it was her job/employment, not yours.
If they don't give it within a reasonable amount of time, then she should raise a post employment grievance. I am presuming that she has not got an employment contract? But if she has there should be details of how to do this in there. If not just write saying you want a breakdown and she is raising it as a formal grievance.
A call to ACAS might also be worth it.
Good luck!

wowfudge · 08/03/2015 21:24

Is it a bakery and they've got your Kitchen Aid mixer? I agree with pp that you need to give more info.

I would also suggest she write to them and request a full breakdown of the costs accrued in order to agree them and make payment accordingly. There is no harm in pointing out they are holding onto property which is not actually hers.

It all sounds very odd - with more info it may make more sense.

Original poster
BikerTales · 08/03/2015 21:26

"Under the law as it stands you are not allowed to keep somebody's property even if they owe you money."

That was what I expected, Vivienne, do you know if that applies in Scotland?

OP posts:
WhatsGoingOnEh · 08/03/2015 21:28

Get a solicitor to write to them, ASAP. It'll provably in,y rake one letter to get the stuff back.

WhatsGoingOnEh · 08/03/2015 21:29

only take one letter

OneHandFlapping · 08/03/2015 21:29

I think you should post this in Employment or Legal, and get some advice from one of the very well informed posters on there.

I am surprised that the police think an ex employer holding onto your DDs property is a civil matter rather than a criminal one, and suspect they just can't be arsed to do anything.

WhatsGoingOnEh · 08/03/2015 21:29

And they're not keeping her property, they're keeping yours.

wowfudge · 08/03/2015 21:30

And a stables/livery yard makes more sense, but even telling us the environment would help OP.

CatsBollocks · 08/03/2015 21:31

You can open a small claims case at your local Court really easily for the cost of your equipment. I'd do this ASAP and claim for costs as well. I wouldn't be paying any amount without a breakdown of the bill. They'll have the opportunity to put their side of the argument across in Court.

wowfudge · 08/03/2015 21:33

A valid legal point here is that anyone seeking payment for services rendered needs to be able to properly account for those services.

CatsBollocks · 08/03/2015 21:36

That was what I expected, Vivienne, do you know if that applies in Scotland

If it's a livery yard/stables no they can't but often they won't return property either. I've seen people having their horses moved because they haven't paid livery bills etc. It's common practice with unscrupulous yard owners which is why I don't stable my horses on a yard owned by anyone but me

Viviennemary · 08/03/2015 21:37

Not sure. But I should think it does. They are just simply not allowed to keep your property.