To ask if this is allowed

[BikerTales]

Have NC for this as the circumstances may be very recognisable. Am posting here for Sunday evening traffic, hoping there might be some Scottish law experts about.

DD1 had a weekend job. At work she was allowed to use the facilities (in her own time), the deal being that appropriate costs would be charged against earnings.

[Important to know for later in this saga, she often used her own equipment (mine really, I paid for it) before/during/after work, so often kept it there. Mostly fairly inexpensive pieces, but also one large expensive item.]

Her job came to rather an abrupt end this weekend. Although the circumstances were totally beyond her control, she had let them down rather badly, and we totally understand that a smallish business has no room for unreliability.
Fair enough. When they told her this, they also told her that she owed them an outstanding sum for use of facilities.
Again, fair enough, she doesn't at all dispute paying her debts, except that they haven't given her a bill, haven't told her when she racked up this outstanding amount (they say they keep a record of use, so should be able to say), have simply told her a total (hundreds) and that she must pay cash.

Then they told her they were keeping her equipment until she pays!

I'm really shocked! It's not just that she hasn't got hundreds of pounds to give them, in one go (if she really does owe such a large sum, I can and will pay, although will want a proper account and won't pay cash) it's the fact that they have taken her/our property.

A local police person told me that the money owed was a civil matter, but that the employers taking property was theft and I should report it on 101.
This I did, but the person I spoke to on the advice line said that, as DD had been happy to take this equipment to work in the first place, her ex-employers weren't stealing it, by locking it up and refusing to give it back. They said the whole thing was a civil matter and their advice was to give the ex-employers the cash they claim my DD owes.

I find that so hard to believe. Can that really be correct? Is there really nothing I can do?

A call to ACAS might indeed help, Wine, I didn't think of them, and - no - DD didn't have a contract.

I think you are right, a letter - and yes - perhaps a solictor's letter, would at least put things on a more formal footing.

Again, I am so sorry to be cryptic, fudge and others - there are very few of these places around, and DD told everyone she knew she had a job there! If I say expensive sport/activity, does that at least allow you to set a scenario in your mind's eye (without me outing poor DD).

Add message | Report | Message poster Viviennemary Sun 08-Mar-15 21:37:47
Not sure. But I should think it does. They are just simply not allowed to keep your property.

They aren't allowed but lots of yards do and the police will not get involved.

I'm not an expert on Scots law, and am not qualified in it so can't give any advice, just my opinion.

It sounds like it is theft in my opinion. In Scotland intentionally depriving the owner of property is theft, which is why private car clamping is generally illegal. So unless they have a legal right to hold on to it, it would be theft.

You can have a situation called a lien where someone supplying a service can hold on to property as security against an unpaid bill, eg a mechanic can hold on to a repaired car until you've paid- but they have to have provided a service directly to the thing they're holding on to so it sounds like that wouldn't apply.

It might not be the best idea to get the police involved initially though, I'd probably ask for a breakdown of the costs they're asking for. And if it does go further and you want proper legal advice the Scottish legal aid board have a section on their website pointing you in the direction of local legal aid solicitors who should, I think, give your daughter a free initial appointment.

biker you will pay the same for a Solicitors letter as you will to raise a small claim in the local court. Personally, I wouldn't bother with a Solicitors letter as they're often ignored.

I think the onus is on your DD to chase the full breakdown, but she must do so in writing and give them a reasonable time period to respond in. If they've already told her an amount then 7 days is enough to provide the back up or she'll take legal action.

That would work in England and Wales so just check first for Scotland.

Is it possible that the new employers might be able to get the equipment back for you? It's often a very small world in similar businesses.

"I think you should post this in Employment or Legal"

Will try that too, OneHand (are we allowed to post the same thing in more than one place?) though it has cheered me a lot to hear posters say they think these people are not allowed to keep our property!

It's what to do next and I suppose if the police can't intervene, then my most realistic option is a solicitor. I'm starting to feel that is probably worth the cost !

That all makes sense infrequent. So as you (and others) say, DD will write to formally ask for a full breakdown of this total cost and we'll take it from there.

I'm kind of thinking it would do no harm if I wrote separately at the same time, saying that the equipment they are holding belongs to me, that I can prove it's purchase, and I want it to be returned to me immediately. Maybe?

None of this is going to be quick, is it? Oh dear.

My advice would be for your DD to request the breakdown and point out the property they are holding is not hers and should be returned. I don't think you should get involved as such until they have had a reasonable opportunity to respond.

I think a solicitors letter just to lay out the legal facts to them, as the whole situation seems to need a few legal certainties thrown at it. I'm relating it to my field, skiing and I'm probably assuming that while she used facilities she probably didn't cost them much directly, and certainly not what they are trying to bill.

Looks like they could raise a charge for payment and then get an attachment order to sell the goods. See here - www.thinkingscots.com/wp-content/uploads/Tods-Murray-Enforcement-of-Debt-in-Scotland.pdf

Not sure that they'd go to that expense, though...

Does DD know what the public pay to use the facility. Did she keep a record of her use. how much would a member of the public pay for the numbers of hours use that she had? And is it anything like the amount they are charging her.

I'm wondering if its ski/ snow board related.... and your skis/ board are at the employers along with DDs boots/ skis etc. I fear it will be hard to get your stuff back separately to DDs, she had control and use of it after all and your kit was not removed from your possession by the employer, but by your daughter.

If I use my own tools at work, no one knows if they are my tools or my husbands or the chap next doors... they are seen as mine regardless of who paid for them.

I don't understand why she was allowed to use the facillities but had to pay from her own wage anyway, so it wasn't really a perk of the job! Plus if she really does owe hundreds of pounds were they counting on her working there for years to come or docking her pay substantially in future months? Seems a very unfair system to me.

Hi Agent,

Those remedies are after the creditor has obtained decree in the courts, ie. has gone to court and has a court order to enforce, see page 5 of your document.

And they probably wouldn't bother for such a small amount, Infrequentposter, would they? Unless they are particularly thrawn.

Was she employed, or just on a casual basis? Firing her like that sounds wrong for a start. Was that legal?

Go down there yourself and go and get your property back, and tell then to forward all details of your daughter's "debt" with dates and times etc

If she's been there less than two years she has few rights when it comes to dismissal Hissy

I don't expect her to have any employment rights, Hissy, but I don't think DD is too worried about that aspect.

She is simply anxious to pay her debt, once it is properly presented and if correct, and be done with it. She is also very anxious to get our property back, especially the things that I paid for and are 'ours'.

I am still rather shocked that the police cannot help. The equipment being held is worth quite a bit.

We are going down the route of sending a formal request, being sent in DDs name, for a written detailed account. See if that gets us any further forward. A bit of a waiting game.

Thank you everyone, for all your advice.

Is the amount she owes greater or less than her equipment?

I think skiing too!

I would go back to the police and demand that the theft is recorded.

Oh, less, much less, Furyfowler. Equipment worth substantially more.

I've been thinking that, on and off, all day, carol. Previously, I complained on the non-emergency phone line, but have been wondering to myself whether I should actually go to a police station, to ask that it is properly recorded.

I would. Definitely worth something on record.

Was there any written contract where it was agreed they could hold onto your equipment until your debts were paid? I don't think they can do this. If there was no written contract then they definitely cant do this.

If employers deduct anything from your pay without it being in your contract then they are called unlawful deductions. I reckon holding onto your equipment would definitely be unlawful.

as others have said, go to the employment law forum as there are some knowledgeable people there