...to think that school uniforms are rubbish and sexist?

[Annahmolly]

Just saw a lovely little girl in Starbucks with her mother. She was around 12 and sitting on an armchair, pulling her legs up to get comfortable. The ridiculously short, flimsy piece of material posing as a skirt rode up so high that her legs were almost uncovered. This is in March - most other people in there were in winter clothes. The silly knee-socks hardly made things much better, covering only half the leg. Surely thick, black tights would be much better, if schools absolutely must make girls wear skirts? It seems as though uniform regulations require girls to look "cute" and "feminine" at the expense of feeling warm and comfortable. The shoes are silly too - not appropriate for cold and wet weather, and neither girls nor boys ever seem to be wearing proper winter coats with their uniforms. What's with that?

Excuse my ignorance on this, but I did not grow up in Britain, so I don't know why these rules exist. I dread sending my daughter to school freezing cold just because some school regulations dictate that she has to show off her legs in a stupid little flimsy skirt. It restricts movement and is, in my opinion, sexist.

I can't get my kids to keep their coats on in any kind of weather - it's highly unlikely they're going to freeze to death and if they're too cold - they'll know for next time. Tights are too warm for one of my daughters in the classroom, she's like a hot water bottle most of the time. She came out of school today with her cardigan shoved in her bag and her coat round her waist. They can wear trousers if they want with their uniform but they don't want to.

Yabu if you have not looked up the school's uniform policy. In no school I have ever worked in has the girls uniform been 'black pleated skirt that must only just cover the arse'. Much more likely it should be knee length.

Is it sexist boys cant freely wear skirts?

how exactly does it affect your life? some people just love to moan over nothing

YANBU, but not for the reasons in your OP, OP!

Most schools indeed allow girls to wear trousers, and sturdy lace up brogues are available for girls of secondary age.

I'm pretty sure that the girl you saw chose to wear that ensemble, even at the local primary school you can see younger girls in winter wearing uniform approved, flimsy gingham frocks with jumpers rather than a thicker, warmer skirt.

My bugbear is bastarding ties. I have never in my adult life worn one, refused to learn to tie one (my lovely DF did it) so my DCs had to ask DH how.

Where the sexism lies is that girls have to wear a tie from age 11, probably for the only time in their lives. Why?? Why put the stamp of this uniquely masculine item of clothing on even girls who choose to wear a skirt? I dislike the safety issues of them too, if one's DC school doesn't allow clip-ons. Ours don't.

And YY to the nasty, synthetic, "do not use fabric conditioner!" "do not tumble dry, even though you have a 48 hour turnaround in winter!" things. Yet they cost two arms and two legs.

Most schools allow girls to wear trousers.

I think school uniforms are great, in that they are cheap and create equality. They also improve behaviour.

Girls always have the option of tights with their school uniform, and usually a minimum skirt length, so these 2 points are nothing to do with school uniform.

I'd also guarantee it was the girls "slant" on uniform too

I don't see it as a "sexist" issue either

We could of course do a poll and ask how many boys "want" to wear a skirt

Where the sexism lies is that girls have to wear a tie from age 11, probably for the only time in their lives.

That is not sexism.

How is wearing a tie sexism?

Lads have to wear one as well

I think if they have to have uniforms they should ditch the skirts altogether.

I've been away from the UK long enough to think that there is definitely something dodgy about old blokes requiring young adult women to dress up in school uniforms :-/

Most girls that age round here where their skirts as short as possible and seem to wear knee length socks (that don't quite reach the knee) instead of tights - thereby showing as much leg as is possible.

They don't wear coats when it's cold either.

Think it's called fashion!

I think school uniforms are great, in that they are cheap and create equality. They also improve behaviour.

Most are far from cheap (unless you mean quality rather than cost)
They do not create equality across the gender divide
I belive there is no evidence for uniforms improving behaviour either, butam prepared to be corrected

My dc's school uniform is exactly the same for boys and girls. Blazer, shirt, tie, straight unfitted trousers and black shoes that can be polished. Likewise the PE kit is the same for boys as it is for girls.

Any attempt to show evidence for uniforms improving behaviour would presumably need to account for successful school systems in which no one wears uniform ... I am very sceptical to say the least.

(Oh, and the ties here are clip on)

One school near me specifically states that its uniform is unisex and that both boys and girls can choose to wear either trousers or a skirt - no sexism there!

Although I've yet to see a boy come out of there actually wearing a skirt...

"They also improve behaviour."

No, they really don't.

Adults stereotype schools with a strict uniform policy, and preferably one with a 'proper' blazer and tie, as 'like a public school but in polyester as possible' as 'good' schools with good behaviour and good old traditional discipline and manners - but there is research to show that introducing a uniform makes no discernible difference to behaviour or achievement. And look at the high achieveing popularity of schools that choose not to have a uniform. Camden Girls, for example.

Uniform ensures all pupils can concentrate on education rather than fashion when in school.

I hate school uniforms and would much rather that my kids did not have one.

I don't find them cheap as I have to buy two sets of clothes. They did not have uniform at primary school, a lovely well behaved school, and it was so easy. They wore jeans, joggers and trainers. Love it that my eldest is at college and back to comfy clothes and he looks like himself again.

At high school their uniform is unisex, polo shirt and sweat shirt and trousers or skirts. As they all look the same most of the girls wear skirts, otherwise they are the same as the boys. Which is why my DD did not wear the trousers I bought her. At least they have just changed the policy on shoes and the girls can now wear kicker boots, so much more practical in the winter. They can all wear opaque tights though rather than socks.

I am sure the uniform the girl you saw had was more her choice than the school policy.

They don't have uniform in French schools, nor in the French schools in London. They don't seem to have many behavioural problems.

"Never heard of a school where wearing trousers wasn't an option for girls"! I'm guessing you haven't come across the Independent school sector. It's rife..

Ok, ties aren't sexist.

They seem to me to be a uniquely masculine item of clothing, though and I'm struggling to think of an example where adult women wear them regularly.

I may be overreacting, I have tie Issues!

I don't mind the ties at DC's school as they are functional, the colours denote year group and prefect status.

"Uniform ensures all pupils can concentrate on education rather than fashion when in school"

So why does Camden Girls - a comp - have such great results?

In schools where non-uniform is the nom the kids just get on with it. All over America and Europe secondary schools do well without a uniform. We just cling to these beliefs.

Some kids may well experience trouble over their clothes, but in my school they were the same kids who would have been targeted for other things. Not that clothes were an issue in my school, actually. And no problems in my DCs primary, a non-uniform school.

If we are relying on matching polyester blazers and Teflon trousers to sort out bullying, respect, equality and behaviour we are deeply sunk.

Are adults expected to wear matching outfits to boost their behaviour or performance at work? Unless they are in the army etc? Chief execs, bosses, people trusted to think and make decisions always wear their own clothes while 'workers' wear uniforms. Why is that?

I've been a pupil, parent and teacher in the UK and US so have experienced both uniform and not.
Uniform is the work of the devil. It's a complete waste of time and money, creates yet another set of rules that are a barrier to learning rather than helping it, and does nothing to make students look or behave better. Then there are still schools where even young girls HAVE to wear skirts and then get told off if their underwear shows, whereas trousers would be so much better for them. Any kids with sensory issues, or religious reasons, or who just don't like ties/skirts (whatever) have the crappy choice of putting up with it or looking different from everyone else. There's no reason why stores couldn't sell cheap basics without them having to be some kind of uniform, and then kids could wear the same in school and out, which would be cheaper for parents.

It's easy enough to have dress guidelines (as most adults do for work) without needing uniforms, so why keep them?

Depends on the school and th uniform.

My kids have a great uniform- cheap to buy, the colours are common, the uniform is androgenous- boys and girls are free to choose from the range of subscribed clothes.

My dd spends the winter with her knees blue from wearing a skirt and long songs, but it's her choice and I've tried to persuade her otherwise numerous million times. It's not the schools fault she is stubborn!