To think that a lot of parents overestimate how much influence they have in how their DCS turn out?

[AndyWarholsOrange]

I was thinking about this after the most recent fight thread about SAHMs/WOHMs where one poster said something along the lines of a parent could stay at home until their DC was 18 and they could still turn out to be a dick.
I remember someone on a previous thread talking about the '3 P's' -personality, parenting and peers and I really agree with that. I think you can be an amazing parent but, if you have a child with a difficult temperant who then gets in with a 'bad crowd' as a teenager, they can go massively off the rails despite your best efforts.
Your ability to control what your DCs do diminishes rapidly as they get older especially when they reach secondary school age. We probably all know of families who have parented their DCs similarly and they turn out very differently.
It seems that the majority of people who have had poor parenting will have some degree of difficulty as an adult but that even 'perfect' parenting won't guarantee that your DCs turn out OK. Which is a bit depressing.

I find it interesting how similar separated identical twins lives can be, jobs,partners, children.

I agree that being permisive probably isnt good for some children.
Personality determines how you react to a bad crowd.

I agree op, but I also think it depends on extreme behaviour from parents.

If parents are sort of middle of road whatever they do, no great shakes but if parents are extremely religious or extremely clean obsessive or extremely tight, or extremely educationalist then it will have huge impact or extremely feckless, etc.

I think the child has a very clear personality, and it is that personality mixed with the environment growing up that shapes the teenage/adult.

I sometimes find myself describing things from my childhood, and I realsie the person I am talking to is nodding in a sort of oh poor you fashion, as I am regaling tales of the alcoholic dad and the slightly neglectful mum! But for me, it just taught me self-reliance, and I learned from dad that blaming others for your misfortune does not get you anywhere... I suspect that other personalities may have gone the other way...

My aunt is a nasty control freak with narcissistic tendencies and her daughter is a complete carbon copy. It really is frightening how much influence that she has had on an impressionable young person.

None of us can ever say that we have parented each child we have in exactly the same way. Circumstances will be different , we ourselves will be different and of course they have their own personalities that make the way you deal with them different. So far my two (coming up for 15 and 14) seems to have pretty much the same moral barometer and are making good choices for themselves in terms of friends etc. I find that in particular quite facinating. DS1 is very quiet, always been overly compliant and chooses similar friends. DS2 has always pushed the boundaries more and is louder and more confident. However, he has deliberately chosen quiet, studious friends. There is one boy who I find overconfident and seems to have access to quite a lot of funds that keeps trying to get closer to DS2 - he knew him originally from outside school and now they are at school together but in different classes. DS2 has accussed me of not liking this boy. I have explained that it isn't that I don't like him, I think he is not a bad lad at all but that I worry that he could get DS2 into trouble as he is overconfident and seems to attract trouble a bit. I don't stop them seing each other or even try to. DS2 remains friends with him but does keep him at a distance, preferring his quieter friends. tbh I'm not sure if it's my influence now or the way he has been brought up that is helping him to make his own choices.

I do joke with them that in the luck of the draw they ended up with bad cop and bad cop as parents, but at the end of the day, they know we are only strict with them becasue we love them and want them to be happy and make good choices in life. They know that becasue we have spelled it out to them in exactly those words. I've said to them in the short term it would make life easy for me to let them do what they want, eat any rubbish they wanted etc etc, but that I wouldn't be doing my job as a parent if I did so. Loving someone isn't always about making life easy for them.

oh, also meant to add how much I feel influenced by my own upbringing. My parents were not well off but hardworking, they taught us to be the sme, but had very little ambition for us I think. They fed us clothed us and we absorbed the rest proabbly by example as I can't really remember many conversations with them. We weren't a huggy type of family and I think this is what i struggle with the most as an adult and despite not wanting to be the same, I've probably been very undemonstrative with my children too which I'm sad about. I have however spend a lot of time with them, reading with them etc, have given them as many opportunities in life that really weren't available for either me or DH. I'm hoping that this is enough :) They certainly know they are loved and cared for even if they don't appreciate a hug or cuddle on the sofa as people seem to imply that their teen boys still like.

I think you can be an amazing parent but, if you have a child with a difficult temperant who then gets in with a 'bad crowd' as a teenager, they can go massively off the rails despite your best efforts.

Yes to a degree, but if you are a parent who is present and involved there is a better chance of you steering your kids away from the bad crowd. I know I would move towns to do this. If you are a parent who works all hours and never sees their kids, then it is much more difficult.

I think that even if teenagers go off the rales during those years, in the long run, the values that their family instilled in them will eventually come back to them. I say this based on one of my sisters who went a bit crazy, but now as an adult has gone back to the values that we grew up with.

I think it's wrong to judge your parenting skills on how your DCs turn out at 18 (often it's how many A levels they got or if they got a first at uni).

I'd say you can only judge your success when your DCs are, say, 60.

Were they happy in life, did they contribute to the world, are their children happy and in happy relationships.

Just getting to 18 without becoming a drug taker or in trouble with the law is a small part of life. Did they in turn become good parents themselves and do good for others is a better test.

To really consider this question, you need to flip it round. If you are the main factor in how your kids turn out, then your parents are the reason you turned out so well and are thus really responsible for how your DC turn out. I think I need to give up ttc in case my kids turn out like MIL

Moniker, that is a lovely post and I agree with you. Well said.

Missusthepoint has it spot on. I did child psychology and from birth, the parent child bond has massive impact on brain development, emotional intelligence, milestones, personality etc , the list is endless. The damage poor parenting can do is frightening when you consider it really. I think 1 or 2 classes on it should be compulsory for new parents, but are probably unworkable in practice.

Yes siblings are often different, again this is more down to more experienced
parenting than innate traits they are born with: by the 2nd child parents have relaxed and have experience to call on, that results in 2nd children often being more gregarious and confident.

Missusthepoint has it spot on

Do I?! Wow - I only did half a term of A Level psychology.

Although I'm a huge fan of Margot Sunderland. I should read her books again - it's all too easy to become complacent after the baby phase is passed.

I meant Missusthepoint has it spot on, obviously!

bloody divvy brained idiot

Andy, I could not agree more with your OP.

DS1 and DS2 could not be more different and I worry about DS2, they have the same parents, were parented the same way, eat the same stuff, do pretty much the same activities, are (almost) the same age (12 months apart). It's like they are from different planets.
And no amount of parenting is going to change that.

I think a lot of parents underestimate their influence. I think people learn how to be happy or not from their parents or home life, that their relationships will always be effected by that of their parents (or parent and step parent or whatever the set up is). I think a person's ideology is often deeply rooted in or a reaction to their parents' ideology. I know that my parents have really influenced who I am.

I think it's impossible to define 'good parenting'. So therefore good parenting is not possible. Or rather you can't order parents. He was good. He was better. He was the best.

But it is possible to define bad parenting. And bad parenting does effect children. By that I mean neglectful or abusive or something of that nature.

We're all doing the best we can. And mostly it's good enough.

All of us get it wrong sometimes. And get it right sometimes.

Thank you 3luckystars

I was brought up in a house full of alcohol, extreme violence, severe neglect. At 10 I was taken into care where life was sterile, abusive, humiliating. I can't remember ever being hugged until I was an adult.

No-one parented me. No one had any expectations of me - other than that I would fail. I was given plenty of opportunity to go off the rails - I didnt - not ever!

I have been happily married for over 30 years, have lovely dc's, a calm, happy, normal life.

I obviously believe that nature has far more impact than nurture, and that my personality has had a greater influence on my life than parenting.

Yes, yes, completely and it's a Shame this doesn't get mentioned more on mn.

I've got 2 DCs. They are soooo different. I don't think anyone would think they had the same mum/parenting! Obviously there have been slight differences eg we were better off financially when dc1 was younger. I was a fitter healthier parent then etc.

But things like manners- I taught them both the same but now one is polite and one is rather rude!

They are so influenced by wider society.

nokidshere

On further reflection, I am sitting on the fence on this subject: I do take Moniker1's point about how important parenting is, but also how early years experiences (and probably intrauterine ones too) affect who we are.

I know families with dreadful social/substance abuse/MH problems, sometimes for several generation and then ONE person breaks the cycle and 'gets out'. I have no idea what that person has over their siblings/cousins

I used to get lots compliments on how polite DC1 & DC2 were.

Then DC3 came along, who is badly behaved. Lots MNers & occasionally ppl in real life are astonished that I can't control his behaviour better. Esp. the bad behaviour he does when I'm Not There. Or that the school never tells me about but the parents told me half-varnished versions of what happened. Other people seem to have great remote control buttons on their kids and to always know what they've done. That must be nice.

ragged and Jackie, I have one 'black sheep' as well - short fuse, easy to take offence, incredibly insensitive to other's needs or how is actions affect others - while I accept that parenting different children identically is impossible, I cannot believe that he is as different as he is purely because he is DS2 and not 1, 3, or 4

Totally agree, it drives me mad when people say ALL kids who go off the rails must have been brought up badly.

My sister and I were brought up exactly the same, I turned out fine (I think! ) whereas my sister got in with the wrong crowd, committed a lot crimes, got someone to burgle our house, stole my mums credit cards, grandmas jewellery etc. She eventually ran away at 16 and refused to come back. I haven't seen her for 20yrs.

Services for children weren't like they are now, my mum was at the GP every single week for several years begging for help but got nothing.

What more could she have done, maybe something , maybe nothing - I don't know, but I know my parents tried their very very best and it still haunts them to this day.

I think that "good parenting" covers a massive spectrum of family life. Bad parenting clearly has a terribly detremental effect on children but so often on mn I hear about "good" and "bad" parenting which is all pretty much ok. I think there's a tendency vastly over estimate the little things, particularly (dare I say it) with first time parents with very young children (I count myself in this totally!). I'm not convinced that a lot of the things me and my peers routinely get worked up about and often end in a bunfight on here are quite superficial in the larger scheme of things. I'm thinking BLW, baby wearing, cc, purees, ebf/ff/mix feeding, routines, nursery/cm/SAH. I think that the biggies, discipline/behaviour etc seem to come when they're older.

Does anyone know of an absolute gem of a person with completely awful parents? Or a totally obnoxious arsehole with truly wonderful parents? I share a lot of my parent traits, but when I think about it I tend to think of the things I like about them and imagine I inherited those!!!

I don't believe anyone has to (or can be) a perfect parent.

Children all have their own personality, it's clear from watching both my children, they are who they are.

However you can guide and shape that personality. Instill morals, encourage and provide a good stable base for them to work from.

You can't possibly predict or influence how they turn out. But you can put the ground work in to give them the best chance they have of being happy, and contributing to society.

My younger DS is 2 yrs 3 months. It has been abundantly clear in the last 3 months since I became his main carer that he wasn't getting adequate care.

My ex husband was his main carer, with me working FT.

Back when he was 20 months I had him referred for SALT assessment. I had serious concerns about his lack of understanding. He lacked understanding of very basic concepts, and did not communicate by pointing or talking (although he did have a few basic words, so it didn't seem to be a speech delay, more an understanding delay ).

During this process I was asked to complete a questionnaire (ages and stages questionnaire). I took photos of this once completed (so I could look back at it).

Something struck me the other day, as I watched my now very different child going about his business. I looked back at the form. I had written on it that my concerns dated from when he was around 10 months old. I actually returned to work from maternity leave at this point, and ex took over the main carer role. I'd also written he was tantruming at an early age, around 12 months, and these were upwards of 30 times a day.

Just 3 months after his dad has gone out his life, my child no longer tantrums 30 times a day. He probably has 4-5 frustration related tantrums, which seems well with in normal range for a 2 year old toddler.

He is talking in 3-5 word sentences, where as he had about 30-40 single words when his dad left. He understands. This is the crucial thing. He UNDERSTANDS!!! So now when I say to him, where is your nose, get me your shoes, sit down etc etc he actually understands. He had zero understanding of these basic things before. He had no idea of daily routines or concepts. Now, for example, he comes downstairs in the morning, he goes in to the kitchen, shouting 'breakfast', gets out his bowl, his spoon, his cup, and asks for a drink of milk. His dad would never have encouraged this. He would bring him downstairs, put him in his highchair, turn the tv on, then go and make his breakfast. Then he'd leave him to watch tv and play with his toys all day. He fed him, and changed his nappy. But that was all he did. He might have read him the odd book (DS loves books). But I now know from my oldest child that he was frequently told no when he took a book for him to read. And found out the full extent of what he was doing when I wasn't there (fuck all except play computer games).

His dad was avoiding taking him out anywhere. Not playing with him. Not communicating with him.

In other words, he was neglecting his needs. If you don't do things with a child, how are they supposed to learn? If you don't talk to the child about every day things, what do they learn?

I spent my 2 days off each week doing activities with him. I was always talking to him, trying to encourage him. But when you are not there most of the waking hours, how is your input going to cancel out the rest of the time? It can't really. They will learn, but at a much slower pace.

It's been like watching a small miracle unfold. To realise that my child has been emotionally neglected is incredibly painful. But I have enough evidence that this is the case.

It's clear looking at my child that now I am there 24/7 (off work) and he has consistency, love and meaningful input to his development that he is flourishing.

It's been a hard lesson to learn for me. But I do think you have a massive influence on your childrens development. But you can't guarantee the outcome at the end (or the journey on the way!). You can only try your best given the circumstances you are in. That is all anyone can do. It doesn't actually matter if you work in or out the home. It matters that you love, and nurture your child in the best way you can.