I am annoyed that women HAVE to care for their DCs and elderly parents.

[Moniker1]

This is the phrase that is trotted out constantly here and in government speeches, on Women's Hour on Radio 4.

And I feel it is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The more that it is said, the more those family members who could and should also be involved in caring responsibilities can duck behind the parapet and shrug it off as not their problem, eg DHs, the siblings of the person who does do the bulk of the caring.

This is a quote from the MI5 thread 'Ms Blears claimed there could be an issue for women with children when MI6 officers needed to travel abroad. (BBC website)'

How sad! That this should be flagged up this early in any debate about recruitment. Middle aged women of course have their DPs to look after so I suppose that excludes them too.

I feel as far as elderly rellies go that ALL of their offspring should be responsible for their care, perhaps a system like the CSA to fund their care so all family HAVE to contribute in money if not actual care, as it so often falls on one female family member. I don't want to debate how bad the CSA, just throwing it up as an idea.

I have no plans to be cared for by my DDs in old age, I hope I can afford to pay someone else to help out, then move to a care home once that is what is needed.

But we need a change of attitude. So care is considered everyone's problem not only the female members of families. And perhaps women would then be a bit slower to step into the role and take on sole responsibility.

I also agree that children should not be obliged to pay for their parents. I know people who are no contact after a childhood of terrible abuse.
But making provision for yourself is unrealistic for most people beyond a few years. If you do live to a 100 years of age and need care for the last 20 years of your life, few people could fund that length of care for themselves.

miggsie whilst most of your post and it's conclusions are undoubtedly true, I would point out that a survey on mumsnet is likely to provide a statistically skewed sample.

I certainly think it's true that, once women go part time (usually because they have children) they then open themselves up to taking on other caring responsibilities just by having unpaid hours available. I know a lot of mums who go from working part time to look after the kids to working part time to look after the parents/in-laws. But I also think a lot of single working carers are "hidden" - I know several men and women who work full time but live with or next to elderly parents, providing care around office hours, whilst their siblings get on with raising familes, etc

In fact I think marital/family status (presence of spouse/children) may be as big a factor in who provides care as gender.

That's true caryam, and take into consideration that women live longer, so need bigger pension pots to live out of, BUT are paid 20% less than men, who paradoxically live shorter lives, and need less of a pension.

We are looking at a greying population with older women financially discriminated against and marginalised. Inequality in pay today, comes home to roost when pensions are considered.

If you are no contact due to abusive treatment then I don't think you would come into the equation of care services or other carers. So would not be considered.

I am thinking of perhaps the carer losing income to do the caring role, perhaps being subsidised by other family members which might allow them to employ others so they can continue their present employment or give them respite. Not enforced by law but perhaps a recommendation by government or SS.

It might be an incentive to ensure that some plans are in place as regards the elderly persons assets. So that they can be used instead of being 'saved' to be inherited by all.

How do you define abusive though Moniker?

One of my siblings is currently caring for my father. Imo (and my grandparents who took us in) he was neglectful, violent and downright cruel. In her opinion he was strict... One of my other siblings things that he was neglectful, violent and cruel, but pitches in with the caring because 'he's our father'. My eldest brother not only agrees with me, but is not speaking to the other siblings for speaking to our parents about he and I.

There's no way on this earth I'm giving a penny to the sibling who gave up her council job (she had the most secure job imaginable with a good pension pot/opportunity) to, basically, try and re-write history.

Life isn't always clear cut. Children should never have a legal responsibility to fund anything for their parents imo. If morally people want to do it fine, but never a requirement.

You might be NC due to abusive treatment, but you could still get social services or other service providers trying to contact you to get you to take on the care, etc.

My friend had to be very firm that she wasn't interested and was not going to help.

YANBU

Childcare is a parents' issue, not a women's one and as such should not be on women's hour.

While I think caring for DC seems to be considered the mother's issue rather than the father's (which is obv wrong), I'm not sure that taking care of parents is the same. In my family experience it is completely mixed. My maternal grandparents are looked after primarily by their two sons and one of their daughters, and my paternal grandfather is cared for by his son (daughter went NC 20 years ago).

I can't remember which state it was in America (probably Texas) but "people" can go to jail for refusing to care for their elderly relatives.
If those "people" are men I'll eat my hat. The policy is about forcing women to do the bulk of (mostly unpaid) care in society. And if they refuse, well, big brother brings in the big guns.

Childcare is a woman's issue because newsflash women carry babies for 9 months and then breastfeed them.

Until men can get pregnant and breastfeed, there will be a discrepancy between the amount of care a mother can give her baby and a father can.

Probably best not to hold your breath...

I have noticed that the issue of who becomes the main carer tends to be down more to geography than sex.

I live 2 minutes from my parents, my brother 45 mins. Whilst I do not doubt for a minute my brother's willingness to help out, it is not practical from him to drive over here to get a pint of milk for our parents. It will fall to me.

I know that a pint of milk is a frivolous example but the principle is the same. If one of them falls/ needs a dinner/ wants someone to speak to the plumber/ insuring medication is taken, it will fall to me. Not because of my sex but because of my location.

My 86 yo widowed mother has paid carers coming in for things like showering and she has employed a cleaner, but everything else has to be done by the family. 2 of us live over 1 1/4 drive away and the 3rd one lives 5 hrs away. We all do what we can - we are 2 males and 1 female. DB1 has taken on all the runing around for appointments as he mostly works evenings, I do the finances and internet shopping and when we visit DH does the gardening and any odd jobs that need doing. DB2 (who lives farthest) comes up when he can (every 1-2 months) and does whatever needs doing and his DW sometimes travels up on her own and takes DM shopping/hairdressers.

We have never collaborated on this, it just happened like this and works well.

To the PP who said that their parents don't want to be a burden but avoid making decisions to sort anything out, you have my empathy. This was my DM & DF to a tee. They always assumed that DM would die 1st as she was the one with ill health and that DF would be fine by himself. They refused offers to help them move near to me into retirement apartments which would be easier for them to manage. When DF got up one morning and dropped down dead of a heart attack all those assumptions went out of the window and there was a mad panic to get a Social Care assessment for DM. It has certainly made me think about how I will plan my future and any house moves so that I am not a burden on my DS.

That was me, bigbluebus.

My mother has been working for years on the assumption that she is going to outlive everyone in her own generation and possibly the generation thereafter and to continue to meddle help out. She has been trying to get my father to move into accommodation that she would like to live in on her own (in a care dependent, steep stairs way, requiring excellent health... despite many issues) for years. As a result, they are still living in a large rural property several miles from the nearest shop and a 45 minute drive to the nearest big town with services (M&S ready meals/hospital etc).

As it turns out, she is going to be the first one to go.

car dependent

My XH looks after his parents, he moved a couple of hundred miles to do so, found a part time job, lives with them, and is their sole carer. He has an older sister, who lives a couple of miles away, doesn't do anything work, and could easily have stepped in, but she is a lazy cow, and won't put herself out for anyone.

They are getting too much for him now, rather than put XMIL in a home, he is moving them back here, and they will all live with me. Except XSIL, who can do one.

There is no obligation to anyone to care after their parents, except morally I think it's the right thing to do, if you can

I've noticed this sort of gendered language in the media too, and Woman's Hour does seem to be a major culprit.

I think that there are still many gender-based assumptions made about caring roles - both by society and within families themselves. My brother lives abroad, and while my parents obviously miss him, they frequently make comments like 'it would be worse if you had gone, because you're a girl' - the implication being that the female child has more of a responsibility towards ailing parents. I suspect that part of the reason my brother chose to move is that he wanted to avoid potentially having to deal with the future responsibility of ailing parents - our geographical circumstances now make it 'natural' that I assume this role when the time comes.

I agree that more women than men do a larger amount of childcare. I know I do but then it was something dh and I discussed at length before we made a decision. We considered all the options including him being a sahd. I really object to being told this is wrong.

As for caring for elderly parents, well my dad did the lion's share for his mother, much more than his sister who also lives locally. I don't think he's alone among his peers either. So I don't really recognise what you're saying.

I'd have thought extended overseas travel for work would be difficult for all parents/families.

bonsoir My DM lives in the same house we grew up in. It is a bungalow with an upstairs so she can live on the ground floor. Unfortunately it is built on the side of a steep hill so access to the back garden is impossible for her as there are 5 steep steps and there are steps into the front of the house too. The driveway is steep (to the point where I won't put my car on it as there is no view of the road as you back off) and my DM has never been able to drive - although DF was driving until the day he died.

It amazes me that they thought they could live there forever but having been there 50 years they didn't want the upheaval of moving - so that will become our problem - either moving DM when it becomes impossible for her to stay or removing 50+ years worth of crap personal belongings when she is no longer with us.

Moniker you be surprised how equal it is. For example i think last week it was mostly male relatives bringing members of family in including a nephew, a brother in law and several sons. In fact thinking back last week i had no females bringing elderly members in!!!

My dad cared for his mil/ my grandma as much if not more than mum did.
he lifted and carried her, mum couldn't manage it.
I looked after my mum and Dad before they both died, I have no brothers but I would have still been happy to do it if I had.
They cared for me for all those years, least i could do was to reciprocate.
I'm sorry but unless they have needs you can't tend anymore and of course you had a good relationship, then you owe them.

Just remember one patient who excitedly told me she was luckily as now had two sons!!!! Her son had a boyfriend who bought this patient in each time over the next few years. His boyfriend was amazingly caring and treated my patient like his mum (body language watcher here). He also privately told me he was so lucky to get another mum. He rushed out to get the car nearer as she might get wet or cold, and gave her space but was outside door waiting (reading a book sitting on a chair) when i opened it. I leave it to patient and family if they want to come in alone or with someone. Tbh from my experience id say care of elderly tends to be men not woman!!!!!

londonrach that is very encouraging.

To be honest it seems to be ime that the elderly relative assumes the females in the family will look after them which doesn't help matters.

But, as you say, in your experience that isn't the case, so it might encourage people to think about old age and their care a bit more and have plans in place for when they are infirm rather than make assumptions that a family member is obliged to step in.

yanbu op. I must admit I think that things are changing slowly but this kind of language needs to be challenged.

Its pretty simple really use people instead of women and parent instead of mother.

I wonder if in the future, old people who need daily care will be forced to leave their homes and move into purpose built sheltered housing.

There wouldn't be any travelling time for the carers, meals could be provided.
They would be safer than living on their own.

BTW is speak as someone who is early 60s and there is no way that I ever want to be a burden to my DCs.

Quite possibly Pax, although depends what you mean by 'forced'
It may be that remaining in a large property that you can't maintain will be seen as selfish and untenable.
Expecting relatives to sacrifice their own wellbeing to care for you in said home will be seen as unreasonable and so people will 'naturally' make the decision to move into some kind of sheltered housing ?